Interesting Article from NYT Posted on ***

[confusedkid]

The New York Times

July 5, 2005
Straight, Gay or Lying? Bisexuality Revisited
By BENEDICT CAREY

Some people are attracted to women; some are attracted to men. And some, if Sigmund Freud, Dr. Alfred Kinsey and millions of self-described bisexuals are to be believed, are drawn to both sexes.

But a new study casts doubt on whether true bisexuality exists, at least in men.

The study, by a team of psychologists in Chicago and Toronto, lends support to those who have long been skeptical that bisexuality is a distinct and stable sexual orientation.

People who claim bisexuality, according to these critics, are usually homosexual, but are ambivalent about their homosexuality or simply closeted. "You're either gay, straight or lying," as some gay men have put it.

In the new study, a team of psychologists directly measured genital arousal patterns in response to images of men and women. The psychologists found that men who identified themselves as bisexual were in fact exclusively aroused by either one sex or the other, usually by other men.

The study is the largest of several small reports suggesting that the estimated 1.7 percent of men who identify themselves as bisexual show physical attraction patterns that differ substantially from their professed desires.

"Research on sexual orientation has been based almost entirely on self-reports, and this is one of the few good studies using physiological measures," said Dr. Lisa Diamond, an associate professor of psychology and gender identity at the University of Utah, who was not involved in the study.

The discrepancy between what is happening in people's minds and what is going on in their bodies, she said, presents a puzzle "that the field now has to crack, and it raises this question about what we mean when we talk about desire."

"We have assumed that everyone means the same thing," she added, "but here we have evidence that that is not the case."

Several other researchers who have seen the study, scheduled to be published in the journal Psychological Science, said it would need to be repeated with larger numbers of bisexual men before clear conclusions could be drawn.

Bisexual desires are sometimes transient and they are still poorly understood. Men and women also appear to differ in the frequency of bisexual attractions. "The last thing you want," said Dr. Randall Sell, an assistant professor of clinical socio-medical sciences at Columbia University, "is for some therapists to see this study and start telling bisexual people that they're wrong, that they're really on their way to homosexuality."

He added, "We don't know nearly enough about sexual orientation and identity" to jump to these conclusions.

In the experiment, psychologists at Northwestern University and the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto used advertisements in gay and alternative newspapers to recruit 101 young adult men. Thirty-three of the men identified themselves as bisexual, 30 as straight and 38 as homosexual.

The researchers asked the men about their sexual desires and rated them on a scale from 0 to 6 on sexual orientation, with 0 to 1 indicating heterosexuality, and 5 to 6 indicating homosexuality. Bisexuality was measured by scores in the middle range.

Seated alone in a laboratory room, the men then watched a series of erotic movies, some involving only women, others involving only men.

Using a sensor to monitor sexual arousal, the researchers found what they expected: gay men showed arousal to images of men and little arousal to images of women, and heterosexual men showed arousal to women but not to men.

But the men in the study who described themselves as bisexual did not have patterns of arousal that were consistent with their stated attraction to men and to women. Instead, about three-quarters of the group had arousal patterns identical to those of gay men; the rest were indistinguishable from heterosexuals.

"Regardless of whether the men were gay, straight or bisexual, they showed about four times more arousal" to one sex or the other, said Gerulf Rieger, a graduate psychology student at Northwestern and the study's lead author.

Although about a third of the men in each group showed no significant arousal watching the movies, their lack of response did not change the overall findings, Mr. Rieger said.

Since at least the middle of the 19th century, behavioral scientists have noted bisexual attraction in men and women and debated its place in the development of sexual identity. Some experts, like Freud, concluded that humans are naturally bisexual. In his landmark sex surveys of the 1940's, Dr. Alfred Kinsey found many married, publicly heterosexual men who reported having had sex with other men.

"Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual," Dr. Kinsey wrote. "The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats."

By the 1990's, Newsweek had featured bisexuality on its cover, bisexuals had formed advocacy groups and television series like "Sex and the City" had begun exploring bisexual themes.

Yet researchers were unable to produce direct evidence of bisexual arousal patterns in men, said Dr. J. Michael Bailey, a professor of psychology at Northwestern and the new study's senior author.

A 1979 study of 30 men found that those who identified themselves as bisexuals were indistinguishable from homosexuals on measures of arousal. Studies of gay and bisexual men in the 1990's showed that the two groups reported similar numbers of male sexual partners and risky sexual encounters. And a 1994 survey by The Advocate, the gay-oriented newsmagazine, found that, before identifying themselves as gay, 40 percent of gay men had described themselves as bisexual.

"I'm not denying that bisexual behavior exists," said Dr. Bailey, "but I am saying that in men there's no hint that true bisexual arousal exists, and that for men arousal is orientation."

But other researchers - and some self-identified bisexuals - say that the technique used in the study to measure genital arousal is too crude to capture the richness - erotic sensations, affection, admiration - that constitutes sexual attraction.

Social and emotional attraction are very important elements in bisexual attraction, said Dr. Fritz Klein, a sex researcher and the author of "The Bisexual Option."

"To claim on the basis of this study that there's no such thing as male bisexuality is overstepping, it seems to me," said Dr. Gilbert Herdt, director of the National Sexuality Resource Center in San Francisco. "It may be that there is a lot less true male bisexuality than we think, but if that's true then why in the world are there so many movies, novels and TV shows that have this as a theme - is it collective fantasy, merely a projection? I don't think so."

John Campbell, 36, a Web designer in Orange County, Calif., who describes himself as bisexual, also said he was skeptical of the findings.

Mr. Campbell said he had been strongly attracted to both sexes since he was sexually aware, although all his long-term relationships had been with women. "In my case I have been accused of being heterosexual, but I also feel a need for sex with men," he said.

Mr. Campbell rated his erotic attraction to men and women as about 50-50, but his emotional attraction, he said, was 90 to 10 in favor of women. "With men I can get aroused, I just don't feel the fireworks like I do with women," he said.

About 1.5 percent of American women identify themselves bisexual. And bisexuality appears easier to demonstrate in the female sex. A study published last November by the same team of Canadian and American researchers, for example, found that most women who said they were bisexual showed arousal to men and to women.

Although only a small number of women identify themselves as bisexual, Dr. Bailey said, bisexual arousal may for them in fact be the norm.

Researchers have little sense yet of how these differences may affect behavior, or sexual identity. In the mid-1990's, Dr. Diamond recruited a group of 90 women at gay pride parades, academic conferences on gender issues and other venues. About half of the women called themselves lesbians, a third identified as bisexual and the rest claimed no sexual orientation. In follow-up interviews over the last 10 years, Dr. Diamond has found that most of these women have had relationships both with men and women.

"Most of them seem to lean one way or the other, but that doesn't preclude them from having a relationship with the nonpreferred sex," she said. "You may be mostly interested in women but, hey, the guy who delivers the pizza is really hot, and what are you going to do?"

"There's a whole lot of movement and flexibility," Dr. Diamond added. "The fact is, we have very little research in this area, and a lot to learn."

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Well, it's interesting... what do you people think? The idea that there is very little true bisexuality is fascinating, I think... I mean I know at least one guy who is for sure bisexual... he's had boyfriends and girlfriends and I don't doubt his relationships with either...

I definitely think there's probably a problem with the study though... I mean, determining arousal is one thing, but if they showed me a straight porno (guy and girl) I would probably be aroused... so does that mean I like girls? Ehrm... no.

What do you guys think? Some people on *** were mad that the guy who posted the article actually did so because it just "reopens old arguments" but isn't that what a message board is about? Besides, I think it's particularly pertinent in this context as the article says that 40% of gay men identified themselves as bisexual when first coming out, something that I did as well.

-CK

[goratrix]

way too long for this time of the day. Bookmarked.

The header seems interesting though... :-)

[nisomer]

Yeah, I read that earlier today. I have noticed before reading this, that many bisexual men tend to be more interested in the guys than the gals. It seems like they are physically attracted to girls, but that is basically it. Whereas for guys, they are attracted to them in many other ways, and when they find their "love", it is with a guy. But of course, I could be wrong, since I am not bi, and have never thought of myself as being bi either.

[confusedkid]

Originally Posted by nk1114

Yeah, I read that earlier today. I have noticed before reading this, that many bisexual men tend to be more interested in the guys than the gals. It seems like they are physically attracted to girls, but that is basically it. Whereas for guys, they are attracted to them in many other ways, and when they find their "love", it is with a guy. But of course, I could be wrong, since I am not bi, and have never thought of myself as being bi either.

Yeah, for me though the sexual attraction to girls isn't there... I think of them more of "pretty" than anything else. My roommate talks about this girl having a better rack than this girl and stuff... and all I see are lumps on their chests. LOL For me, it was always this idea that I COULD be turned on sexually by a girl (i.e. I like straight pornos, etc. but almost ALWAYS because of the guy...)* but I like girls mostly only as close friends... nothing more...

-CK

*About that... straight guys apparently like seeing guys screw women and cum... does that make THEM part-way gay? :tongue:

PS: That thing about Freud and Kinsey believing all people are bisexual... does that just play into my friend's argument (see here) that gay people are just making a choice!?!?!? Argh!

[confusedkid]

Ok... slight follow up

I definitely think that the article is at least right about there not being as many bisexual men as people think tho... I was just on our school's directory and only 86 guys identify themselves as gay whereas 135 guys describe themselves as bisexual, which makes me think that a good number of them are just calling themselves bi for whatever reason... Further, 23 guys that say that they're bi are in relationships with women... whereas only 2 bi guys are in relationships with men??? WHAT? Does that mean that guys are just SAYING that they're bi to be cool or something???

Moreover, there are 25,000 undergraduate students at my school... meaning that there should be 2,500 LGBT students (10%). Cut that number in half (assuming 50% are lesbians or bisexual women) and there should be 1,250 gay or bisexual guys at this school... i.e. 1,029 guys here are in SERIOUS denial! LOL Perhaps I can help them out...

The article is interesting, but to me the point is somewhat abstruse. If a man wants to identify as bisexual, then why not just let him identify as bisexual, regardless of whether or not physiological data on his penile response to erotic imagery indicates otherwise? I certainly don't think anyone who identifies as bi will read studies like this and think, "Gee, I guess it's impossible for me to be bi." Again, it all comes down to the individual.

And yeah, maybe a lot of guys say that they're bi on their way to realizing that they're actually gay, but again... WHO CARES?! Let them follow their own path of self-discovery!

[Jordano]

Alrighty, this is right up my ally! I am a claimed bisexual and just wanna get your opinions and justify myself too...

To start off with, I've only come out to myself, along with some selected others, as being bisexual. I am also in a relationship with a girl and have been in one for over 4 years now too. I know I love this girl, but the sexual "spark" is almost completely gone. It feels like we've already been married for some time now.

This past month and a half I met a guy, and am pretty sure I'm completely in love with him, sexually and emotionally. Like the article said, the study is based on arousal by showing movies and such. There's a huge difference between emotional and physical attraction. As for myself I haven't quite figured my own out, so therefore I claim myself as bisexual.

The emotional attraction is strong with my girlfriend, there's definitely a connection, but the physical portion of is pretty standstill. With my boyfriend, and I definitely claim him as my boyfriend, just not quite openly yet, there's a very strong physical, sexual attraction, plus emotional love. So I guess that would mean I am more gay, but I love my girlfriend, there's an almost permanent bond with her. So what the hell am I?! haha

Bisexual - in my books! So what do you think?

[hawkeye]

yea, on the penile tests, i guess they would rate me as extreeme. Extreemly sexual that is. It seems to me though that the figure of good looking girls just reminds me of sex. where seeing guys brings up vivid pictures. Never have been very attracted to girlfriends though, but then again, i have never been put into a sexual situation, so that understanding will have to wait till i'm older. sidenote: very attracted to some of my (guy) friends, but never really any girls. Bi to me seems like it can be the combination of sexual orientation to one sex, and the emotional attraction to the other. so you might find yourself better able to live with one sex rather than the other, even though you are gay or straight sexualy.

[TriBi]

I think the important thing here is the difference between the emotional and the sexual.

I still describe myself as Bisexual, even tho' my sexual preference in recent years has been slanted more toward guys.

Why? Because I have always found a lot more emotional spark in a relationships with a girl. And, yes, I have had pretty good sexual relations with some of them too. It's just that these days I am probably a bit selfish, I enjoy my independence and I guess I am a bit reluctant to compromise that by having to significantly adjust my lifestyle to someone else....and I'm older - which does make it a bit harder to radically change that sort of freedom.

It actually took me a long time to work this out. Believe me, it is very confusing when you can find more of a sexual attraction to a guy, but more of an emotional attraction to a girl. I enjoy the occasional sex with a guy, but I have found most guys with whom i have had sex to be people that I didn't really connect with on an emotional level.

That maybe sounds strange. Let's try and make it clearer - I have had a crush on a couple of guys - but the one person I totally fell in love with was a girl. maybe that still sounds odd (well, it is to me too!) but that's just how it is.

Sexuality is very strange....

[confusedkid]

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005...rominence.html

Lend whatever creedence you want to this blog posting. I just came across it and thought I should put it up here to let people decide what they want.

-CK

I wonder if it works the same way in women ? Very interesting. I ran across this same article in another site.