Pride vs Progress

I've actually always felt this way about gay pride marches personally. However, I still participate in a "civil" way, because I believe that despite the negative images that are sometimes conveyed, the positive image that "we are a part of the community and we're here to stay" outweighs it.

 

I have done this before and would encourage everyone to do this too. Write letters to the editor and inform them that yes, the parades are alot of fun but what the media seems to miss is the supportive churches, the organizations that work so hard for gay rights, the gay square dancers, the supportive legislators/city officials that show up, and the parents who march with their kids. Also, write letters to the media. Maybe if enough people do it they will show something else besides the half naked men and the drag queens.

 

That's why I think under 14 years old kids shouldn't go to a parade...
It's great that kids(which I mean under 14 years old) or their parents who took their kids to parade would support and see the pride parade but I don't think it's appropriate for kids to see half or maybe 3/4 naked people shaking their ass on public streets...

And I know what exactly means Dave's quote in his post.
I saw a guy wearing a T-shirt that says
"I went to The Pride Parade and all I got is this sore, stretched, swollen asshole"
At that time, I thought it was true cuz I didn't know well about the parade.

 

Oh my gosh!

I think that video is quite possibly the most vile, disgusting, self-righteous, and insidiously hateful thing I've ever seen on youtube! Internalised homophobia, anyone?

I'm not even sure where to begin. Okay, first off... I come across all manner of hetero sexually explicit stuff all the time; Pride parades happen one day a year (in the communities where they do happen). There are PLENTY of places in the world where people who have feelings for people who share their gender live in mortal fear of being killed if they EVER let that on, much less have a parade about it.

If the IDIOT who made the video actually thinks that ANY civil rights progress has EVER been made without a large dose of protest and radicalism, he's living in a fantasy world. To say that every gain gay people have ever made has been by pursuing a assimilationist agenda and being nice and saying please and being "just like everyone else" is so offensively moronic I can't believe it can be said with a straight face. Of course any progressive movement has to do some work within the system but not women, not black people, not Jewish people, not ANY oppressed group has ever gotten anywhere by just saying "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir!"

The whole premise of the video is founded on a stupid premise: the notion that ALL people are the same. And the notion that all people WANT to be the same, to be some kind of mythical "normal." "Normal" does NOT exist. "Normal" does NOT exist! How many times does that have to be pointed out before people actually GET that?!

The whole point of modern democracy is that we have freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of association! I am the first to admit that some of the things I see at Pride parades make me uncomfortable--but that's the WHOLE point! Does it hurt me? Does it harm me in any way to see things I'm not used to seeing? Does my right to live in some kind of sanitised bubble where everyone plays by my idea of what's "decent" or "disturbing" overrides another person's right to express themselves freely? Am I FORCED to watch the Pride parade? Am I, because I'm gay, somehow pressured into wearing buttless leather chaps?

The entire gay movement's roots are founded in protest, in fighting back against unjust laws and outdated, restrictive notions of morality! Do you know what happens when you go to the powers that be and say "Please would you stop putting us in jail because we're human beings just like you?" You get laughed at! Did Rosa Parks make her point by following appropriate standards of behaviour? Or did she do something shocking that got her arrested?

Similarly, did the patrons of the Stonewall Inn nicely ask the police to stop raiding their bar?

And talk about the biggest case of blaming the victims EVER! Oh right, it's inappropriate gay people who are the cause of the persecution of gay people. If only they would tone themselves down, the mean straight people will stop picking on us. Because of course, bullies ALWAYS leave you alone if you don't fight back. Happens all the time. People with power just have such restraint in the exercise of it! Have you EVER heard someone say "Would you stop being quite so Jewish?" "Can't you be a little less BLACK?" "Oh you're so ASIAN! Can't you tone that down?"

All of those statements also imply that all <insert minority group members here> are exactly the same. It is just ridiculous to blame stereotyping on the people being stereotyped! Some gay people like leather. Some like collecting antiques. Some like muscle cars, I'm sure, or hockey. Trying to force everyone into some kind of narrow little inoffensive portrayal of the "good homosexual" is antithetical to the whole point of Pride parades, or the gay movement, the heart of which is "It's okay to be yourself!"

But oh no, homosexuals have to be even better fantasy nuclear family 1950s invasion of the body snatcher pod people than straight people think they should be! We have to more inoffensive than ever before because the only way we're going to get anywhere is by BEGGING for scraps and, apparently, attacking our own because they don't fit in as well as we do. Hmmn... I think there's a term for that... oh right, it's called COLLABORATION! We should collaborate with the people oppressing us because then we'll get special bonus fairy points for being good little subservient children! Oh no paternalistic straight person, I'm one a dem "well-behaved" homoshexshuals!

Are people really that naive that you think it's fair that homosexuality is tolerated if it's "private?" Because you know, all the straight people I see out in the world are just so private about who they're attracted to, or showing affection for their loved ones. They're just so prim and proper--why it's like the paradise that was Victorian England! Now Britney Spears is, I'm sure, just an exception. But blonds, you know... they're always so distastefully inappropriate in public!

And of course the truth of the matter is that homosexuality is not okay with a pretty big chunk of the population even if it IS in private. If it were, there would be no bathhouse raids, no bar raids, no bashings... in fact there'd be no US Supreme Court decision in Lawrence v. Texas saying criminalising homosexuality was illegal.

The media will ALWAYS focus on the most attention-grabbing aspects of whatever it's covering. That isn't something that's in the control of the parade participants--that's the media that's doing. You don't fix that problem by getting gay people to tone it down on their one and only day to celebrate openly in public (or risk being attacked as "deviants"); you go after the media and their sensationalistic practices. You go after the cause, not the symptom.

The gay movement is about being free to be who you are, and being valued for your difference AND your sameness, not sneaking crumbs of pleasure and happiness here and there by flying under the heterosexist panopticon's radar. If you want something inoffensive, watch Martha Stewart or the Antique Roadshow.

 

Some of the people that go there to show their so called "pride" are actually displaying their pathetic insecurities. We don't see straight guys prancing around with wigs and makeup do we? Sure they don't even have parades because they have a lot of rights but you know what I mean. They have self respect as men and therefore don't do that crap.

How can anyone respect men that go out of their way to look feminine? That's totally missing the point of being gay. Instead of going there like real men and showing what it's all about, they show the same stereotypes that make even GAY people sick. If you wanna express yourself or whatever, it doesn't have to be in a gay parade, start your own "accept me however I wanna dress" parade, don't try to stand out with those nasty things when you're representing ME and so many others.

 

I agree w/ joey. I strongly disagree w/ Cloud Nine. What's w/ the harsh judgment? I can respect men that go out of their way to look feminine, just as I can respect men that go out of their way to look masculine. And I'm more than happy to have both parties represent me - because we all share the ability to express ourselves as we want to.

 

And that's fine but if people want to force everyone to see how normal and natural being gay is, why are they going out of their way to represent it in such a messed up UNNATURAL way that only makes them laughable and upset a big part of the closeted (and not closeted) gay community? Parades are about men liking other men (and women liking other women), not to show you can dress however you want to. Maybe straight nudists should join the gay parade if that parade is not about homosexuality but about expressing ourselves however we want to.

No man should "go out of his way to look masculine"... not dressing like a girl on purpose and being born as a male makes you masculine enough to go to those parades.

No offense to anyone by the way. I just think it's sad some gay people think that just because they're gay, they HAVE to act like women. I know someone myself that suddenly came out and then his pitch changed and he became different, it just looks pityful.

I'm not talking about transgenders by the way.. I'm preety sure the majority of the people that act like the other sex are NOT transgenders but just want to stand out. Again I don't hate them as much as I sound like I do, it just looks really stupid and doesn't show self respect at all... it certainly doesnt make homosexuality look like a natural thing which it is.

 

Why? Why should we act more mature? A Pride parade is, among a lot of other things, a celebration. I don't recall a huge hew and cry from hockey fans saying that hockey fans who are rowdy at games should tone it down because hey, it's a hockey game, you're adults, why can't you be more mature?

And that's presuming being naked in public is immature. There are a lot of people who would disagree and say that being overly concerned with nudity is an indication one's pretty repressed. I don't think I'm one of them--I'm not a big fan of public nudity--but part of my point, which you seem to have missed, is that a Pride parade is about there being all different kinds of people... and that's unfair to attack some because they happen to draw more ire from anti-gay people.

Your idea of decency might very well clash with someone else's, so who are you to decide what's decent and what's not? The whole of "decency" is a subjective, relativistic set of moral guidelines.

For instance, many people feel two men kissing is indecent. Where do we draw the line THEN? Where those people feel it should be drawn? You don't change people's opinions by sticking to their comfort zones.

No, I want to be treated humanly. I want human rights, not "normal" rights. "Normal" is a constructed concept which (as above with "decency") changes over time. It used to be normal to keep slaves. It used to be normal to keep women at home, unable to vote or earn their own living. Are those the kind of NORMAL things you desire?

And frankly me and my boyfriend ARE a "normal" couple, as much as anyone can be. The whole presumption of using normal to frame an argument is that a very select group is the good "normal" group and everyone else is abnormal.

So I've never been hypocritical in the way you describe. I've never claimed to be normal. I do claim to be deserving of the same rights and freedoms as everyone else, though.

Actually no, I'm not a big fan of assless leather chaps, actually. But I'm pretty sure some people in the rest of Canada (that would be that big-ass country north of you) have no trouble with them. And frankly I think wearing assless chaps at a Pride parade is a lot more decent than some things people do. As I've tried to point out, what I think is decent is quite possibly different from what you and others think is decent--and it's really nice when people a) recognise that and b) respect people enough not to attack them for their (especially in this case) harmless different sense of what's appropriate and what's not.

I usually try to avoid ad hominem but since you brought it up:

Said the 19-year-old to the 33-year-old. Yes, I'll get right on that.

Anything else you'd like to forbid me from doing? Maybe I should just keep my god-damned faggot mouth shut about my deviant lifestyle and my heretical indecent beliefs?

Last I checked, people were still killed, simply for being gay. People were still sent to the death camps in Germany during WWII, they were still imprisoned, tortured, robbed, beaten, fired, kicked out of their housing, kept from their dying partners sides, denied proper medical treatment... all simply because they were gay. If you think there aren't any parallels between the treatment of black people or women or immigrants or Native North Americans or Jewish people or pretty much any other oppresed group and gay people, then you're missing pretty much the most important piece of the picture to this whole issue.

And while you're right, I don't actually know of any laws on the books saying that gay people can't vote, I'm pretty sure that back in the 60s when you could be tossed in prison for being gay, that would have denied you the vote. And you know, sometimes oppression is overt and obvious, and sometimes it's quite implicit and lays below the surface.

As for homsexuality being an act, you're wrong. Having gay sex, yes, most definitely that's an act. But someone being known to do that and thereby being labelled "gay" functions more like an identity in our society, and a pretty obliterative one at that. People don't think of gay people as straight people who happen to do it with other guys. They think of us as a certain type of people. That's not a lifestyle--that's a (socially constructed) identity based on the people we fall in love with. And it's pretty widely accepted that who people fall in love with is relatively immune to volition, which is to say gay people can't help who they're attracted to anymore than black people can do anything about the colour of their skin.

Yes, you just nailed my whole manifesto: I'm a closet ultra-nudist! I spend all my time and energy advocating for the utter disposal of any and all clothing.

But don't worry: I'm pretty well-grounded in reality. My reality, of course, which as we have seen is quite different from your reality.

Actually I'm pretty sure in your country there wouldn't much you COULD do about an anti-gay parade, given your extremely strong freedom of speech laws. In Canada, an anti-gay parade would likely get labelled as hate speech and be subject to regulation given how our Criminal Code is written. But again, you seem to have misunderstood me: I was saying we (gay people) shouldn't try to be inoffensive at all costs, espeically to the point where we isolate and harrass members of our own communities simply because we think we can thereby win brownie points with homophobes.

You're right: I can show affection to my partner in public. Of course, I live in the gay capital of Western Canada about a 5-minute walk from the centre of the gay village. I'm pretty sure--no wait, I'm certain on this one--that if I were to go to my hometown and hold hands with my boyfriend, or kiss him, or get touchy-feely with him at a park or on a beach, I'd be risking both his and my physical safety. And in some cases, in some places, I'd be risking jail or death. I guess wherever you are in America, it's some kind of gay paradise where you never have think about what the guy you think is hot who you're trying not to stare at might do to you if he caught you eyeing him.

Actually I kinda think the tenor of your response tips the argument in my favour, and the fact that you've been really impolite, and the fact that you've put words and indeed whole sentences into my mouth... but you know me... I'm so immature and childish. I'm sure when I've grown up I can be more like you. I've always thought I was WAAAAAY not self-righteous enough anyway.

And yeah, just a closing thought: you said I can't argue that Pride parades damage the image of homosexuals. It's funny you should say that, because before reading your response, I would have said no one could argue HALF the things you did... but I was wrong! How about that?! Learn something new every day.

 

What's wrong with cross-dressing? It wouldn't be my preference personally to dress in a drag costume if I were to ever march in a gay pride parade, but I see no problem with paraders who choose to dance in weird funky outfits of the opposite sex (whether or not they're appropriate for public display is a different matter). There is nothing insecure about spicing up a parade with what they think the parade should be spiced up with. Perhaps you should elaborate a little more on your "insecurity" statement since I'm not quite understanding you there. Even your response to lizsak did not quite explain it.



Before I begin the next section of this long post, I would like to say, if you're going to reply to it, instead of replying to each passage alone, I much preferr you read the whole thing altogether before responding. Just so that you understand my message fuller. Thanks.

So then, what is being gay? Men who like men who are masculine and butch??

What are you suggesting by saying any of this? That it's only normal if gay males are displayed as "males"??? What about naturally-inclined gender non-conformed gay people, those queer people who grew up with the self-perception of the opposite gender? Do WE not exist too? Or should we not express ourselves and try to hide our gender non-conformity (GN) as much as possible simply so that ignorant people will finally accept YOUR population of gay people, the gender-typical ones? Gender non-conformed gay males' public expressions don't have to be through cross-dressing. However, by calling cross dressers "feminine" and then implying that femininity in a homosexual male is no good, you are ultimately putting US GN guys on a low point. It's almost like, say, a really dark skin guy being degraded by another black person who's skin is not as dark, but in fact, light brown: It's nonsensed, and furthermore, defamatory.

Your response to this example might be, "the black person can't help it, but the gender non-conformed gay guy can." No, he can't, and I will get to that specifically later in this post.

Setting aside the cross dressing, I can understand that we are the very stereotype of gay males. However, maybe the misrepresentation is not our fault, but the fault of an ignorant society: IT made us the definition of gay people when it shouldn't have. Oh, but I guess it doesn't matter: we display our natural selves and reguardless of why, people who don't know gay people don't like it, so we are to be blamed for causing all gay people to suffer......thanks a lot??

Perhaps instead, you should have a different mindset: that there are all kinds of gay people, not just gay males who are or act gender typical, and that society should not be so narrowly focused on one group to have as a representation of all gays. That, to repeat, is ITS mis-perception of gay people. I mean, it's right, there are gay people who are feminine (and many are naturally inclined to be so, whether by biology or environment, or both). But by telling a group of gay people diverse from yours to simply act conforming to a perception that is socially accepting is degerating a section of your own people: you too are helping to bring the gay rights movement backwards.

Really, an act is all it is that we're doing if we GN gay guys were to be gender-typical. So continuing from my passage about the example with the black people, maybe we can suppress our GN the same way some black people in Africa bleach their skin whiter as to gain certain social benefits. In the end, though, our GN is still there and our suppression of it will come back to haunt us and furthermore hurt us. I really expected any gay person to do better than to do that to us! We are living, breathing gay people too!

However, to begin, I must ask: do you care? Or do you simply regard my gender non-conformity as nothing more than a mere display of behaviour that could be changed? If you don't care, there's nothing more I can say to you except, thanks a lot.

 

Yeah... I'm pretty sure no self-respecting drag queen would EVER claim to be representing you.

I don't get this notion that so many people have where each and every person in a Pride parade is somehow trying to represent all gay people. They're just trying to be themselves. Diversity.

 

Lowest Vocal, I don't see what wasn't clear about my posts, you just have to put two and two together in the context. I was talking about how they have no self respect as men so obviously (or not so obviously...) when I said "insecurities" I was talking about their insecurities as men. If they respected themselves as men, they wouldn't feel the need to act like the other sex just because they're gay. I'm talking from experience, someone I know just changed his pitch, acting, walking, clothing and just about everything in a day. He was a tagret and then he just woke up and became something else and I see right through him... trust me. He just knows that he can't stand out as a confident masculine guy so he takes the other way. Walking doesn't just change... Some gay guys don't understand what being gay is all about themselves. BTW, some gay people do walk funny and I don't think it's wrong or anything... it just depends on the person and the purpose and whatnot. Being an attention whore and defeat the purpose of pride parades is something else.

I see how everything I say would be insulting to transgenders but you probably missed the part where I said this doesn't apply to them. I'm not against them so I don't "go against my own people". I know that some can't get them just like some will never get me. But you're guilable if you think most of the loud feminine guys on the parades really feel all of that. What you said ("those queer people who grew up with the self-perception of the opposite gender?") does not apply to those I was talking about that just do it for attention and because they have no self worth. Nah not everyone has to be all masculine because not even all straight people are like that, but when you try to open people's eyes about homosexuality (male+male) you just don't make all stereotypes come alive. So in this context being masculine is just not wearing wigs, stupid makeup and acting like dumb attention whores that have no idea what the purpose is. Like I said I'm sure some really are transgenders but the majority is obviously not.

Saying the parade is there to express ourselves however we want to including clothes is just way too vague. Maybe straight nudists should join us if that's the case. But it's not. I don't think all the people that act that way are pathetic. And I'm not saying everyone that acts feminine should go to hell.

 

Self respecting drag queen? Sounds like an oxymoron. For the record again, I'm talking only about those that aren't really transgenders and they're not being themselves, but just insecure attention whores. It's no secret many ADJUST to what they think being gay is and that pisses me off. I was at an underage gay party a few months ago and 97% of the people were totally acting like the same extremely feminine person. They're not all trans, that's for sure. But yeah, I guess they're "being themselves", right? That's just a bad excuse.

And yes they are representing me when it's their pics all over the newspapers in the context of gay people. People are ignorant anyway so proving sterotypes right is just pathetic.

 

ugh. what an extremely vulgar video. This is really insulting. Omg. I'm really speechless, this video really pissed me off :tantrum: I agree with everything Joey said.

And like other comments posted on youtube..what about mardi gras celebrations??? and:

"honestly, calling your fellow bothers "faggots" is what is taking the movement back "years". and um....whats wrong with drag queens and head dresses? I admit, when a group of people have a bad reputation it is the responsibility of that group to make changes. but name calling and making an ass out of yourself to do it is just as wrong as the things you are speaking against."

Horrible video.

 

*claps for Joey*
You pretty much said everything I wanted to say =P

 

I'm pretty much on the fence on this one. I'm certainly not someone who is easily shocked - and I have seen some very funny things (I mean humourous) as well as some things that could well be viewed as "off colour" (not to me, but to others) at the Gay Mardi Gras Parade here.

The unfortunate fact (and this is why I'm on the fence) is that it is the nature of the media to emphasise the more sensational - which is why the pics of the PFLAG Mums marching in the parade are far less likely to get space than the guys in the assless chaps.

I'm not denying the enormous strides taken in the community thanks to a lot of brave activists - but it does strike me that, celebrations tho' they are, the modern day parades DO, by their very nature, have the result of reinforcing quite a number of unfortunate gay stereotypes.

That is actually a shame, as a lot of "more consevative" folk would be much more likely to be supportive of gay rights if they were presented with less provocative and more "family oriented" instances of gay people and how they go about living their lives.

 

That's actually amazingly true. Keep that in the bedroom, I mean yeah proud to be gay not kinky. Dragqueens should be allowed but like they should dress more?

 

wow, I couldn't agree more. Pride parades are awesome and there is so much more to them than is popularly believed. It was really great to see all those supportive churches marching at the head of the parade. It's unfortunate that, as a result of the media, you would never know about them unless you went to a parade yourself.