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SERIOUS TOPIC - Homosexuality in the Middle East and other things too!

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Mr Bojangles, Aug 4, 2009.

  1. Mr Bojangles

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    After a post in GBLT Rights, I decided to start a bit of a debate.

    Many people constantly slate the Middle East as being anti-everything, but many of you miss a very big fact.

    I'm sure most of you will have heard of Dubai, you know Fly Emirates, Palm Trees in the sea and all that trash. Well, if you turn back the clock 70 years, the place was just a tiny fishing village on the Gulf Coast. Now, it's a gleaming Metropolis with money pouring out of every orifice.

    Then look at London. It took easily 600 years from it going from being a village on the banks of the Thames to Britain's capitol. You might not understand what I'm getting at, but I'll clear it up in a second. Culture and Economy are quite closely related, if one gets out of balance with the other, it gets a bit messy. My history's atrocious, but take Ancient Rome as an example, it's one of the hives of knowledge and culture, but it wasn't always like that. Back when it was a little place that had very little money, that kind of culture didn't exist. So, as it's bank balance grew, so did the learning and the culture associated with the place.

    Back to Dubai though. What took London 600 years to do, it took Dubai 70, so as a result, the culture's still a lot older than the city. It takes generations to change ways of thinking. There are Americans who still dislike Black people, and they were freed as slaves 200ish years ago. So, in relation to Homosexuality though, It's going to take a good few hundred years to accept homosexuality and all these other things that we Europeans/Americans accept as no problem.

    So instead of going 'Oh they're all so backward blah blah blah', just think - 'Hang on, they've not had time to fully understand what the hell's happening to them - give them a bit time to catch up with everything.'

    Feel free to call me an arsehole if I've wasted some time out of your life.
     
  2. Shevanel

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    You're definitely not an asshole for posting this at all Drew, You're totally right, people need to know things like this, and it's also why I say things like "You can't expect people to accept you overnight". Good Post Drew :slight_smile:
     
  3. djt820

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    ARSEHOLE!!!
    But really,
    Europeans and Americans still havent full accepted homosexuality. We're still in the process as well. The thing with the middle east, alot of their views are surpressed by religion. Same story here in America. It'll take centuries for people to overcome this supression.
     
  4. jonny

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    True I agree with u one hundred percent. It's even worse in the middle east where they are alot more into their culture than us western so it will take some time especially as it's not the most critical issue over there, so it won't be solved right away.
     
  5. SailingKoala

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    With the greatest of Respect I have to slightly disagree with you although only slightly. I lived in the middle east for 8 years 3 in The Kingdom of Bahrain and 5 in Dubai. I hate the way the news broadcasts a slanted picture of the region and pictures the whole area as troubled I was in Bahrain during the aftermath of 9/11 and can say I felt safer anywhere in that country than I do back home in the UK. There are still a lot of things wrong with the region most of it brought on by western meddling, but as you point out Dubai especially has grown up so fast that the culture is centuries behind. Unfortunatley some other countries have gone backwards - since I left Bahrain they have a elected government that has made the country a lot more conservative from making alcohol a lot lot harder to purchase, to the actual suggestion that Gay foreign nationals will be deported

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6851.html

    The western Media's coverage of the region though is always biased to make the whole area sound unstable and if at all backwards to western values.

    I Loved Dubai as you know where you stand if you break there laws you are punished It is a Muslim country and therefore has Muslim Laws - They still celebrate Christmas better than most UK Cities allow because in the UK we have become afriad of upsetting other cultures so much we have forgotten who we are as a country (PC for PC's sake)

    Sorry think I gone little of Topic what I mean to say is Middle East gets a very bad press in general as it suits the western media to portray it so, but the Conservative (Muslim) religious views that are so central to most of the region are definitely a danger for anybody that is too Open with anything that is outside them same views
     
  6. carrie90

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    lol you arn't an asshole at all in fact it was a very interesting read
    America get's a bad rep for being all religious nut job's people rarely want to focus on the good point's of a place we automatically look at the negative
     
  7. Steve

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    as far as the culture still being backward there has been a whole lot of chnages in the emirates as for accepting people its all a choice saying that the europeans and americans have accepted homosexuality isnt entirely correct because in some places they still do not have the same rights.

    the culture in the emirates is deeply influenced by the forigners what they get is homophobic forigners so thats what they learn. because they were given all this wealth and didnt have to work hard for it they have to learn and get expiernce from other people who had to work to devolop their countires.

    right now the uae cant run herself without all the foringers as they make up 80 percent of the population of the uae.

    and i think i went a bit of topic
     
  8. olides84

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  9. George1

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    The problem with Dubai is that its population is now around 2.5 million (it's just exploded from all the development) and it's expected to eventually climb to over 10 million within the next couple of decades.
    Dubai is an architect or engineer's wet dream. They are transforming the place to an entirely new type of city which is truly livable.

    However, it just isn't Dubai. Nearly the entire Middle East is exploding right now and moving away from dependancy in oil. In Kuwait they are building Madinat al-Hareer, an entire new city for a few million people.
    In Qatar, their biggest city Doha is having a development explosion as well, with their city expected to double or even triple in population.
    And the United Arab Emirates, the country Dubai is in, is having major developments in all their major cities, partiuarly Abu Dhabi, the capital of the country.

    As more and more westeners move to these places, some old social views will be demolished, but it will take a long time. In Dubai it's only been over the past couple of years that Muslim women are feeling free to wear what they want.
    In Dubai, any religions other than Muslim are allowed to practise, but they're not allowed to do so in public or try to convert people.
    And if you have HIV, they deport you. HIV medication can't be sold in the country and international mail is checked, so you can't order it in either. All rape or sexual assault cases involve a compulsory HIV test, so if you get raped and get HIV you get kicked out of the country as well.

    Dubai is a beautiful place and I dearly want to visit again, but there is going to be a massive culture shock while everyone adjusts to the new sudden mix of people.
     
  10. Steve

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    it is hard for people to understand how the culture in the uae is without actully living there. there is a big diffrenance from what you hear on the news.
     
  11. the ry guy

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    I wouldn't say your an asshole i'd just Have to say you don't know what your talking about and i'm the asshole. I disagree with ur arguement

    first off you can't compare london to dubai. you just can't end of story. london has been in existence for 900something years where as dubai has been around for 150. cause if i were to rewind dubai 600 years it's wouldn't exist and london would have a leg up on dubai. so it's not that dubai accomplished anything in less time than london, it took both countries 600 years (although it took dubai 450yrs just to come into existence)

    Secondly you can't compare racism to anti-gay. I don't turn on the news and hear about how another gay man randomly shot and killed a bunch of people in a drive by. or how a bunch of black people working at a cemetary were digging up dead bodies and dumping them else where just so they could re-sell the lot for cash. And more importantly 3 gay men didn't break into my apartment with claw hammers at 12 in the afternoon WHILE I WAS HOME. its shit like that, that makes people racist. or when you look at the prison system and 70 % of the population in'm are black and most of them are there for violent crimes like 1st degree murder, rape, kidnapping. how many gay gang bangers do you see on the news NONE. On the news it's always a gay man was murder'd, or someone called him a fag in public, or a gay man was fired for his sexual orientation, not a gay guy goes on killing spree. Not to mention black people were enslaved in this country for 400 years so theres a lot of racism in general float'n around this country (it's not all just white ppl, theres black, hispanic, and asian racist's too. )

    As for the Middle East being Anti-everything, i hate to break it to you but yeah they are (and by middle east i'm refering to Iraq). Cause i've been there, did 2 tours and i learn'd alot about some of the "culture" and all i got to say is fuck that shit. you know why the women are supposed to wear that whole black garb and only see there eyes? its because you aren't supposed to look at women sexually, women were only supposed to bear children, help raise'm, and do whatever there husband says. Men can't have sex with there wives for plearsure (there not supposed too anyway), so they have sex with younger boys and than say it's just for fun and that there not gay. but at the same time if you are gay they'll torture and/or kill you.

    This might make me sound like a bigot but i don't care, after having been there before I say fuck there culture (Iraqs's), and back to what you said earlier it took london 600 years, using midevil times as a starting point, where as it took Dubai 70, making WW2 the starting point, then it should take Iraq and other countries 10 years at most.

    Sorry If i came off as a huge shitbag (but i'm a political science major, i argue its what i do), but ur arguement to me to severelly flawed, (then again mine has some errors too, go figure)

    P.S. also if you plan on making a retort to this i'd say make it address'd more toward other people reading this, cause your not going to change my mind (if we all thought alike we'd all be the same and that would be boring, that and we'd all probably be straight if we all thought alike).
     
    #11 the ry guy, Aug 6, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
  12. Just Adam

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    im not even sure what your point is?that dubai is nicer than london?... i dissagree dubai is basically ruled by one guy who what says goes. dubai hasent accepted lgbt life but rasther allowed it as the know where the money comes from some people will be lgbt same as the partys and the endless list of things that arent liked but allowed because dubai survives on the money it makes from people there but anything can change very quicklly.

    i dont mind if you say if its better than london not sure who brought london into all this but so what if it took 700 years the equality we have now isnt skin deep and depending on the oppinions of few.

    i like london well britain sure it takes its time but so what its long term progress and will be here long after people are bored of dubai i like the rain i like the oldness of places it hasent got to be new sunny and cost alot to be worth a damn.

    i still dont know what the point of this thread is just seems like a bashing at england but whatever i know our rights are protected

    so face value tollerance or proper legal acceptance with ever increasing public acceptance...hmmm tough choice ill save myself the money go sit in the rain with some fish and chips and whistle allways look on the bright side of life
     
  13. George1

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    @the ry guy:

    I agree. I've been to Dubai a couple of times and it is very much like how you describe.
    And like I had said in my post, they're going through a major culture shock with the western invasion from the hundreds of thousands of expats moving there. So, they need time to adjust.
     
  14. Mr Bojangles

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    I'm going to respond to you on a very different reason. YOU'RE the one who doesn't know what he's talking about in terms of how Religon's affected the place. You FOUGHT there against an Enemy brainwashed by Idiot Clerics into thinking they'll get 72 virgins. I LIVE in Dubai. I lived in a very remote part of Oman for the best part of 5 years, practically growing up amongst Arabs. The War has done nothing to show The Real Islam that your average Mohamed or Heba practices, it's the warped Wahabbi crap that was born out of one of The Prophet's perticularly Conservative disciples, not what I find if I were to stroll into the mosque not 5 minutes from my house.
     
  15. Just Adam

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    please i beg you stop talking rubbish its missery in text form.

    youve gone so far off topic its insane weve gone from how the west views the middle east and how superior the middle east is to ...london.>.> to now talking about terrorism...why did gays cause terrorism? are we now working for some religious rightwings?...no!

    to say that you lived there for 5 years and grew up around them great good for you ...but you forget everyone is nice until somthing upsets them...these people you grew up around did you ever see how they reacted to an lgbt person? because im pretty sure this is what the point of this thread is unless it really was jsut a shot at the west.

    as i said before and you cant get away from facts lgbt life is very hard in the middle east in all areas as there are allways people who will share the views of extremeists and do harm to others... religions spread love peace and tollerance but funny enough people allways find an exceptioon for somthing they dont like.... sure in the west cruelty can still hapepn but due to the massive diversity of cultures that are intergrated and worked around people can allways find a way to live.

    personally i think this thread should be either closed or jsut forgotten now as it serves no purpose we know life in middle east for lgbt people isnt good at best all you can get is tollerance because people realise they have somthing to gain from you thats it. theres nothing more can be said its just a fact until there is nowhere that has the death penalty for just beeing who you are and loving someone then theres nothign more to discuss.
     
  16. endless poetry

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    well. ... .. ... uhh ... this is quite strong of language . . .

    see, Islam is much another philosophy, and the fact that it turned into the fact that women need to wear burqas is not really their fault. We humans have found ways to oppress women in many disgusting and horrific ways; wearing a robe is quite mild. Now, the Chinese have grown out of binding women's feet to 7cm (3 in), the European has grown out of witchhunts, but would an Arab visiting China at the time, not say "fuck their culture" or an Arab visiting Europe not say "fuck their culture" .

    It is always a changing time. And if in a mere century, the Republican and Democratic parties can reverse roles in liberalism and conservatism,

    What makes you right in saying "fuck their culture" when an Arab a few years down the road looks upon the society you have left your children and grandchildren, to say "fuck their culture".

    Nay, for accusation will not help
    Nay, liberalism is not the entire answer.
    And nay, acceptance is not quite there.

    But the answer is love.

    Not the pedophiliac love you descirbed, but your love for them and to help these people see that oppression of women will get them no-where.

    and not a single person is more civilized, or less civilized. Sure the middle-east may be anti-everything, but do teach them. Do teach them how to love. Do teach them the love that will move their culture forward.

    Oh and side note, Mr. Ry, your degree in PolSci scares me that`s what I want to go into if McGill undergrad law doesnt accept me. . . do I re-think this?

    in any case, no, our discrimination of homosexuals comes from traditions centries in the making, and so did our oppression of women. Do we in the west oppress women? yes, but not as visibly as in the Mid-east.
    Is our hatred any worse?

    I would have to say no.
     
  17. Bader

    Bader Guest

    A quite interesting post i must say. Only recently are women allowed to vote politically in Kuwait. As a Kuwaiti, we all know that most laws are written with islamic-googles, So the question is, with time, dose logic defeat religion and tradition?
    I hope so.

    Saudia Arabia, Religions:
    Muslim 100%
    (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sa.html)
     
  18. saudade

    saudade Guest

    It's all fair and well saying that Dubai is a new city, but Islamic society as a whole has been around since the 7th century.

    Sodomy became punishable by death in the UK in the early 1500s and this was repealed in the mid-1800s. Meanwhile, the conception of Sharia in the middle east dates right back to the time of Muhammad (7th century) and still the death penalty for homosexuality exists in nine muslim countries.

    So yes, places like Dubai are a new cities, and perhaps they shouldn't be expected to catch up, but the culture inherent in those cities is not new at all. It may have an excuse for being "backward", but the fact still remains that it IS, especially seeing as that society has been in existence for 1400 years.
     
  19. endless poetry

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    1st Saudade is a great username... fado is prolly my second favourite type of music after eurovision XP

    2nd In the mid-east, you can be beheaded for being homosexual while here in the west we are spat upon with no real consequences for the aggressor, in a society like ours that still has hate and in a world where rapid change is needed, if we can manage to stall it is only a matter of time before the Islamic culture, say, becomes more accpeting than ours. So it is true now you can call them the backward, but the need to move forward ourselves still remains.

    well that second part wasn`t trying to say much now was it
    I was mainly trying to compliment your username XD
     
  20. saudade

    saudade Guest

    Thanks for the compliment!

    But we are indeed moving forward; this year alone there have been four US states that legalised same-sex marriage, and although there have been minor backward steps like Prop 8, we've hardly come to a standstill. There will always be hate, but discrimination laws on sexual orientation are relatively law and I think that in time more will be introduced, and hopefully enforced more thoroughly.

    In reality, even if homosexuality is decriminalised in the Middle East, I can't see Islamic society becoming much more tolerant and accepting - the only way I could forsee that happening is if the society became more secular (note how the rise in LGBT rights seems to coincide with the rise of atheism) as Islam itself condemns homosexuality. In that case, it would not really be an Islamic society any more.