Incest

Are incestuous relationships wrong? What's your take?

I was reading a thread on another forum about incest, and lots of people were saying that it's wrong, it's nasty, etc. It got me thinking... What's the basis behind that hostility toward incestuous relationships? If two consenting adults want to express their love for each other sexually, and they happen to be blood relatives, how is that morally wrong? How does that hurt anyone else? Maybe there is something morally wrong about it that I'm missing. In any case, it was unsettling to read all those negative remarks about incest coming from gay people, whom you'd think would be a little more thoughtful before denouncing behavior just because it is socially unacceptable and makes them uncomfortable.

That's an interesting question. I know I'm going to take flack for this...but...

I'm not completely closed to the idea. It is still taboo to me, but that may be society's take on the issue clouding my judgement. And I personally think that I would never want to enter into one. I feel that once it moves beyond the occasional expression of one's love for each other (ie the urge to marry, or procreate) than that is unacceptable. How would you be able to explain to a child that his parents are also his aunt and uncle?

However, if two brothers, for example, are that open with each other, and care about each other that much, and both enter into the activity willingly, then I could accept it. It's still weird to me, and I reserve the right to change my opinion on the matter, but that is where I stand right now. Many brothers masturbate in front of each other, or even masturbate each other. It's common sexual practice to elevate from mutual masturbation to other sex acts such as oral sex.

So yeah...I'm not committing to one side of the argument or the other, I'm just stating my thoughts on it, and am obviously still divided over the issue.

Cheers.

[Eligh]

What people do in their bedrooms is their own damn buisness. The reason why its politcaly wrong is because it says some shit about it in the bible. And you know Americans, if its not in the bible(or denounces), that in has to be awfuly wrong! Screw them and their society. I want to build my own country, and make it all gay. Although this has nothing to do with incest, it has to do with the bible. Witch I belive is a big load of trumped up shit, of course. But yeah, what people do in bed is thier buisness, no one elses.

[JonB321]

Erm... that country would have a serious birth rate issue. I think you may want to leave the borders open to breeders.

[Micah]

Originally Posted by Eligh

What people do in their bedrooms is their own damn buisness. The reason why its politcaly wrong is because it says some shit about it in the bible. And you know Americans, if its not in the bible(or denounces), that in has to be awfuly wrong! Screw them and their society. I want to build my own country, and make it all gay. Although this has nothing to do with incest, it has to do with the bible. Witch I belive is a big load of trumped up shit, of course. But yeah, what people do in bed is thier buisness, no one elses.

Eligh, you are aware that the country you live in's foundation has been built upon that 'big load of trumped up shit, and is arguably the reason why you don't live in a communist country or dictatorship of other sort. It isnt all anti-gay stuff.

But bagging the bible isnt the best of ideas for another reason. By doing so, you're only bringing yourself down to their level. They resent homosexuals because gay views and beliefs contradict their own. If we resent christians and other anti-gay religions/organisations because their beliefs go against our own, not only are we continuing a vicious cycle, but we're proving ourselves to be no better than they are.

Originally Posted by JonB321

Erm... that country would have a serious birth rate issue.

Haha, so true, but isnt that what immigrants are for?

[TriBi]

This is kind of an interesting one.

I guess it is possible that gays might look at from a different perspective to straights - and maybe, because I'm coming more from the "middle of the scale" (tending to Bi rather than completely one or the other) I get to view it a bit from both sides.

Bear in mind that straights will likely be thinking in terms of a boy/girl relationship - with all the concerns about possible conception between close (let's say brother/sister or cousins) family members. This is something that tends to be very much taboo and likely to give rise to "shock/horror" with most people.

On the other side, a fair number of gay guys seem to thing that getting your rocks off with a brother/cousin etc is not especially unacceptable - and I must admit, it doesn't hold the same sort of stigma for me when there isn't the potential (in)breeding connotation.

Now...I have to say, any sort of parent/child relationship strikes me as something different again - no doubt because of the thought of coercion or abuse.

That's my take on it anyway - who else wants to put in their 2c worth?

I'm still so divided on the issue. Maybe I would look at it differently if I had a sibling.

[JonB321]

I don't really understand how someone would want to have sexual relations with someone that close to them. Personally, I could never look at anyone in my family, and even most of my best friends, in that sort of way, so I don't understand why anyone would want to, it's just too familiar or something. At the same time, I'm in 100% agreement with TriBi. I think brother/brother, cousin(m)/cousin(m), sister/sister, cousin(f), cousin(f), is a lot different than brother/sister.

The idea of parents and children is so nausiating to me I don't even want to write about it. I don't care if they're consenting adults or what, I think sexual relations between a parent and a child screams the need for psychological help. But maybe I'm just being biggoted.

Either way, I don't really like the idea in general, but tell me if this makes sense or not. My dislike of incest is irrational, I know that... but something about it seems too close, and too personal. Like, you are already so close to your family, you live in the same house as them and stuff, you know their eating, sleeping, hygein(sp?) habbits. There's no incentive to go out and work on a relationship on your own. And trying to form your own relationships is a good excersise in building character, and an important tool in gaining many inter-personal skills that will help you when you're older. Incest to me is the opposite of that... it's like giving up.

Could I ever convince you that an incestuous relationship - between a vasectomied father and his consenting, adult daughter - is a beautiful thing?

After discussing this incest issue w/ one of my friends, I asked her that question, and w/o much hesitation, she said no.

And I find that so discouraging b/c I know there are people out there who see homosexuality as something disgusting and taboo and just plain wrong, and it really does seem that there is no way possible that they could ever see two men together or two women together and think it's a beautiful thing. I guess it shouldn't matter to me so much what other people think, but... gosh, that's just so sad.

Plus, my internal homophobia makes me wonder, "On principle alone, what is the difference between homosexuality and incest?" They're both socially unacceptable to a large degree, arguments against both have to do w/ "going against nature," but they both pertain to people's private lives... So what makes one okay and the other not? Or are both okay? Or, and this is my biggest fear, are both not okay?

[Eligh]

Okay, look, the bible is a bunch of shit. I dont see enough hard facts in it. Science tells you how things happen, not why, and I like it that way. The bible is a swirling mass of contradictions. And those so called christians need to realize that they are just as much of a sinner as you or I are. They think because we sleep with people of the same sex, that we are automaticaly going to hell. Now not all christians are like that, there are exceptions, and I respect them with high regard. I choose not to talk belifes with them. But for those that are all anti-gay, then I have to get up in their face and tell them the facts. And what ever someone said about opening the borders, well, we dont need illegal immagrants coming in and taking our health care. I have no problem if they come in here and become legal citizens of the US. But if they are illegal, then they need to sort things out, and do things the right way. I have friends that are immagrants, and I tell them my view on it. They agree with me to a certian extent, but not completely. I am a very strong willed person about things, and I have an oppinion on everything. Thats just me, and if you dont like it, then you probably wont like me, and I dont really care if you like me or not. I only need few people in my life. Thats it, I'm done.

[JonB321]

Erm... what's with the Bible bashing? It's a book, and a book that has had a huge influence for the better on many people's lives. It's not the book you should have a problem with, but the interpretations of certain people. Also, those people's anti-gay outlooks doesn't stem from the Bible, their interpretation of the Bible stems from their latent homophobia.

Also, Eligh, I have no idea where your feelings on immigration come into play, but if someone has to flee their country for social liberty, political freedoms, or to ease hunger, why should they be looked down upon? If let's say, a gay 16 year old, fled Egypt illegally because he was not free to love the way he wanted, would you object to his illegally being here?

[Micah]

Originally Posted by Eligh

Okay, look, the bible is a bunch of shit. I dont see enough hard facts in it. Science tells you how things happen, not why, and I like it that way. The bible is a swirling mass of contradictions.

Eligh, could you please be more specific in your answer? Where does the bible contradict itself? Assuming you have read it, of course.

And in advance, the argument that the bible says to 'love thy neighbour' is not a contradiction on either the bible's or the christians' behalf. Most Christians will follow this to the best of their ability. Sometimes they fail, but I dont believe they have ever claimed to be perfect. Loving a person and loving their actions are two completely separate issues altogether that are commonly confused. While a Christian will most probably have an issue with your sexuality, they will continue to act out the command to 'love thy neighour'. You can love a person and disagree with their actions (a mother's love for her misbehaved son is a simply example).

I have several Christian friends, and the topic has come up. They said that if any of their friends came out to them, they wouldn’t love them any less, but thought the idea would take some getting used to (not at all dissimilar from a non religious reaction). Yes, there will be Christians who are prejudice against homosexuals period, but classifying the entire Christian faith by these people is rather ignorant and grossly inaccurate.

Originally Posted by Eligh

And those so called christians need to realize that they are just as much of a sinner as you or I are.

Admitting ones mistakes or sins is the foundation to the christian faith, without this aspect, Christianity would be what it is. However, they believe they have found forgiveness for these sins, and while their methods may seem somewhat manipulative, it is all with good intention.

==============================================

Now, Back to the original topic of incest. My opinion is somewhat similar to TriBi's, in that I see incest as more acceptable between homosexuals, where there is no chance of conception.

Think about this: If two men fell in love with each other after meeting in their mid 20s and fell in love, I would assume you'd have no problem with it. But if they were brothers separated at birth, and they only just found out about their relations, would this be considered wrong?
Do you say "oh well, we're brother's so even though I love you, nothing can happen"?

Besides the idea of conception of child defects, I think the major issue people have with incest is that a 'brotherly' or 'sisterly' figure is someone who you grow up with and sometimes fight with. They have an active role to help your development through childhood and it's a completely different sort of love. But when the brotherly love is taken away, like in the above example, the idea suddenly becomes much more acceptable.

I invite you to draw your own conclusions from my thoughts

Dave

[joeyconnick]

The incest question is pretty interesting. Obviously when you're talking about situations where pregnancy could occur, the super-close incest variations (brother/sister, mother/son, father/daughter) are not very good ideas. However, all the royal families in Europe did cousin-cousin pregnancies for centuries and while it wasn't perfect, society didn't end.

If pregnancy is not a concern, I don't know... it seems like freaking out about incest is not that sensible. The parent/child version is rife with power imbalance, even if the child is technically an "adult." And having grown up with parents, I just don't see them that way. So parent/child incest seems more about power than sex, if you ask me. Kinda like pedophilia is more about power than sex.

But consider the tale of Oedipus... he grows up not knowing his mother and ends up sleeping with her and then discovers after that she's his mother. I mean... is that wrong? Like... if you don't grow up with your parents and you were to coincidentally run into one of them and have a relationship with them and then find out later? I could see that happening, especially between two guys. It would be highly unusual but definitely possible.

What I guess I'm getting at is that once you factor out the genetic reasons against incest, the big issue for a lot of people seems to be the closeness of the relationship between the two parties. But what if I have a really cute cousin from Australia and I grew up in Canada barely knowing the guy and then we're both gay and find each other attractive? (Only the part about me having a really cute cousin from Australia is true--he's straight.) But really, I'm sorry: if he'd been gay and into me, I would have gone there.

A lot of gay guys I know without brothers who I've talked to seem to have a thing for the notion of two brothers having sex. But when you talk to guys WITH brothers, they will tell you the last thing they would EVER do is have sex with their brother. It's just completely off their radar. I'm not exactly sure if this is just a gay guy thing because I don't think I've ever talked to sisterless straight guys who think that a guy having sex with his sister would be hot. (Of course, I don't tend to talk to a lot of straight guys in general. *grin*)

As for the whole "closeness = non-sex-ness," well... a lot of my close friends are either former boyfriends or guys I've had a thing for (and some I still do have a thing for, yes, it's sad and tragic). So while that's not the same as growing up with someone, I don't really think that having a close relationship with someone should automatically preclude having sex with them. It just seems kinda arbitrary. And role confusion? That argument is used by conservatives against gay parents all the time: how will little Timmy be able to handle having two daddies? The answer is that little Timmy handles it just fine; it's the bigoted adults who have issues with it. So role confusion is not really an argument I consider irrefutably valid.

I don't know what my ultimate stand is but I definitely think the issue deserves more than a simple knee-jerk response. It's like most things: context is important.

[goratrix]

with my brother? eeewww. I might even let myself think about it if he was hot... but since he's not... I'll keep that thought ot of my mind.

Anyway, If two sibling have compatible energies, and both want to be together, then who am I to judge?

[nisomer]

I have hot cousins, but I would never find myself in a relationship with any of them...it would be too weird.

[Lava421]

I'm 100% for incestuous relationships because it's love.

If the people consent, I'm fine with it.

LOVE IS LOVE, PEOPLE.

[ill fated lover]

Originally Posted by Lava421

I'm 100% for incestuous relationships because it's love.

If the people consent, I'm fine with it.

LOVE IS LOVE, PEOPLE.

yes thats true but not all people see it that way thats why today in america it's wrong for gays to marry if we had more ppl so see that love is love then maybe we wouldnt have so many problems that we do today, my views on incest are if that person brother,sister, cousin are having sex thats them but when it comes to a mother and or a father being incestuous with they're offspring then i'm totally against that how could you live with your self knowing you had sex with somebody that you helped bring into this world? i know i couldnt

[spiffybritishguy]

Hi i have sexual relations with my brother. He was the first guy i had sex with and it was a bit strange but after a while great.

I'm for it. Although when it gets to marriage and getting your sister pregnant. There it gets a little taboo. I dunno, my opinion may change with time.

[tired_of_lying411]

I find this all really interesting, but I just don't see how someone can look at their close family member and, no matter how attractive, feel attracted to that individual. I may be forming opinions without experience, seeing as my brother is ten years older than be and by no means attractive, but I do feel that if he were, infact attractive, I would be more likely to admire him, rather than adorre him...

just my 2 cents at this time...


but in retrospect, look at what I chose to write in my signature... maybe there's more to this then I really want to bother commenting about without further information...