Bible questions toward homosexuality

[NateDawg]

*DISCLAIMER* Please do not degrade the Christianity community as this is in no way to bring arguments. I'm just trying to understand some things.

Okay, so... This whole homosexual and religion thing is getting the best of me. Yes, I believe God want's us to be happy, but there are some verses in the bible that are forbidding it. Yes, I understand the bible was written by man. I've been told by so many people that BIBLE is Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. I believe that too, but I'm confused now. Anyhow. Please help me out an try understanding this stuff. I know without a doubt I'm not straight.

Romans 1:24-32 (New International Version)


24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)


22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13 (New International Version)


13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New International Version)


9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 (New International Version)


18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (New International Version)


3It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control his own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
Footnotes:

1. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Or learn to live with his own wife; or learn to acquire a wife

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OR.. You can see the Message Version "HERE"

[frostreaver]

It's the same reason why parents don't stone their children if they're rebellious and stubborn. I'm sure there are many other primitive ideas in there that people don't follow now and I'm gonna leave it at that.

[breakingout]

i understand where you are comeing from but God loves everyone no matter who they are and what they have done. Your sins have been washed away when he died for all of our sins. The Bible also says that a women should not lie with a man out of wedlock and cant go to church while they are on there period becuase it is a sin. God love the sinner but hates the sin. all sins are equal being gay isnt a grater sine then stealing is it? there all the same. we are all saposed to live pure lives but God knows we cant. i hope i have helped a little bit

[Shevanel]

There are a few threads on this somewhere, but with this shitty internet, i won't be able to find them, so I'll let someone else link them.

[NateDawg]

Originally Posted by breakingout

i understand where you are comeing from but God loves everyone no matter who they are and what they have done. Your sins have been washed away when he died for all of our sins. The Bible also says that a women should not lie with a man out of wedlock and cant go to church while they are on there period becuase it is a sin. God love the sinner but hates the sin. all sins are equal being gay isnt a grater sine then stealing is it? there all the same. we are all saposed to live pure lives but God knows we cant. i hope i have helped a little bit

it doesn't mean we should just give up tho does it?

[Greggers]

I will try and make a good reply to this thread, but it will take awhile.

Just letting you know im busy writing as you read this!

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This thread post contains a video called "For the Bible Tells me so"

The Giant Thread of Support / Advice / Comfort / Equality and other Videos

It talks about Christianity and Homosexuality using Personal Testimonies, Facts, and Logic. Its a very good, albeit long, video. Take the time to watch it. It answers questions on specific verses near the end i believe. It really helped me when i was suicidal over the fact i was gay and thought i was going to hell. I was so afraid of "hell" that i let it ruin many years of my life, and almost end my life entirely on a few grim nights. So i cant understate how important this video was to me.

This thread contains a video called "Prayers for Bobby"

The Giant Thread of Support / Advice / Comfort / Equality and other Videos

Its a great lifetime movie about a mother and her gay son and how they both deal with his coming out. Its VERY sad, but very inspiring. If you have religious parents you will definitely want to watch this. I actually showed it to my mother and it started her (slow) transformation to become somewhat accepting. Its definity worth a watch.

Ok, now for some quotes i really love. They dont all directly relate, but they might help.

I think God appreciates you even more. Because he created you in his image. At least that's what I was always taught. And since God is love and God doesn't make mistakes, then you must be exactly the way he wants you to be. And that goes for every person, every planet, every mountain, every grain of sand, every song, every tear... and every faggot. We're all his. He loves us all.

Do you ever read the Sunday comics? Well, when I was a little kid, I use to put my nose right up to them. And I was just amazed because it looked like this mass of dots, and none of it made sense until I pulled back. Life looks like that mass of dots to me sometimes. None of it makes any sense, but I like to think that, from God's perspective, life, everything - even this - make sense. It's not just dots. Instead we're all connected, and it's beautiful and funny and good. This close we can't expect it to make sense, not right now.

So my dad says to me, son you did your best. Besides, you cant make a fish fly. And dads right you cant make a fish fly. But you could chuck a fish across the room, and for a few fleeting moments it really believes its flying. Until it smashes its head into the wall.

And finally, a few of my thoughts as a gay Christian.

It took me awhile to realize it, but i came to the conclusion that if Christianity is real and God is up there looking down at us, then Homosexuality cannot be a sin. I dont care how many verses you quote, it just cannot be a sin if God exists. Going on the idea God exists: I know i was created by God. I know he made me a homosexual, because i tried to change and almost died trying, it didnt work. I know that my love for another man is no different than someones love for another woman, its just NOT different. Its not lust, its not evil, its not dirty. Its just love, plain and simple. Going on that, it cannot be a sin. Things like murder, stealing, adultery, these are sins. Why? Because they hurt and harm other people or yourself. Love can be tricky, but its definitely NOT an evil thing. If you think it through, nothing about homosexuality is wrong. Just think it through. I firmly believe no one can make a bad remark about homosexuality that is not based on religion or prejudice.

[Just Adam]

what ever happened to ignorance is bliss? forget all the religious crap and jsut be happy... love is the greatest and worst thing in this world and its the once thing that can endure all else even death... so yea ...

but if your gonna look at thes quotes jsut remember teh bible written by man so is biased, innacurate, wrong.

if you want to understand what its saying you have to look at teh context of when it was written, the problem is peopel twist the words to fit their meanings...

"thall shall not lie with a man as a woman" or summat, anyway doesent mention sex or relations.... i can easilly translate it to mean men shall not lie to men as they lie to women.... " ok dear ...im just popping out to the office" ..... " ok ...pub? "

see its all subjective context and in teh end is worthless all you need to remember is whats usually forgotten love and treat others how you want to be treaten

take care

[Jose Carioca]

I always look at this bible for all my bible needs:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm

[NateDawg]

Thanks guys. I don't have a full understanding of if being a sin or not, but As smoking, harming urself, murdering, etc etc is a sin, maybe homeosexuality is too. BUT. No where in the bible does it say you will be condemned to hell for being gay, smoking, murdering, etc. In fact, everyone preaches that if u ask for forgiveness u will be forgiven.

Also, It says that As long as you are saved, you will go to heaven. That makes me belive that if I'm saved, yet gay, that I am still getting into heaven because I am saved.

@greggers - I've seen Prayers for Bobby. My mom actually wanted to see it, but never watched it. I will look at the links u posted ina little bit when everyone goes to bed!

[Just Adam]

Originally Posted by ConfusedDude

Thanks guys. I don't have a full understanding of if being a sin or not, but As smoking, harming urself, murdering, etc etc is a sin, maybe homeosexuality is too. BUT. No where in the bible does it say you will be condemned to hell for being gay, smoking, murdering, etc. In fact, everyone preaches that if u ask for forgiveness u will be forgiven.

Also, It says that As long as you are saved, you will go to heaven. That makes me belive that if I'm saved, yet gay, that I am still getting into heaven because I am saved.

@greggers - I've seen Prayers for Bobby. My mom actually wanted to see it, but never watched it. I will look at the links u posted ina little bit when everyone goes to bed!

smoking isnt a sin its just slow suicide...suicide i dont see as sin you only needed someone to givea damn,
harming yourself isnt a sin, you just need someone to help you,
murder is damnation of the soul, but in a religion that believes in redemption it doesent mean your forever lost,

beeing gay IS NOT ! a sin, all you are doing is what you were born to do just like everyone else, love.

judge not in this world of my creation on the love given, for the giving of love is all i ask. adam chapter me verse me. book of well fucking duh...

[digsy]

I'm not a Catholic any more, but I went to a Catholic school, and we were taught a few things that made me feel better about myself. The first was that the New Testament completely supercedes the Old Testament; the New Testament were the updated teachings of Jesus, whereas the Old Testament was included more as a history than as a guide or set of laws. Of the New Testament, only one law is made explicit: "Love thy neighbour." Everything else is secondary to this teaching.

The other thing was the belief that all the pillars of the Christian faith are fallible except for God. Modern authorities on Earth (ie the Pope and the Church) are supposed to have the task of updating the Bible and Christian teachings to be constantly relevant and meaningful as time goes by. While I believe the Church often fails in this task, it is somewhat reassuring to know that they admit that religion is a mutable thing, and must change with the times. Therefore, nothing (other than the supremacy of God) is set in stone. The Bible may be used as a guide, but not the law.

I am an atheist, but learning these things always made me feel better about myself at school, and I think some of those lessons are universal.

[shimmersky]

"Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened. But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be preapared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. -1 Peter 3:13-16

This passage tells us that:
1. You are a good person.
2. No one has the right to hurt you and make you feel the way you're feeling.
3. They are treating you like this because they are afraid; it is your task to be courageous and rise up with compassion when those others are full of fear-fueled hate.
4. When people ask you how you can be gay and a Christian, have some answers ready. Quote the Bible; quote one of the thousands of gay Christian websites or books. Speak from your heart. But do so kindly and with the understanding that it is hard for people to face their fears (and you embody something that they fear).
5. If you continue being a good person, and if you are selfless and respectful and kind and loving and wonderful, then people will just embarrass themselves in trying to condemn you. The more obvious you make it that you are a wonderful person, lovingly created in God's image, the harder it will be for hateful people to say that who you are is wrong.



God loves you.

• "I want God's gay and lesbian children to know of God's unconditional love and acceptance of them as well. We cannot find any condemnation in scripture for committed monogamous same-sex relationships." -Rev. Charles Coppinger
• "The half-dozen biblical references to homosexuality do not reflect what we understand today about loving relationships. This is an identity, not a sin." -Rev. Dan Johnson
• "Homosexuality and sodomy are not ethical sins. No one is being hurt, no one is being cheated, nobody's rights are being infringed upon." -American Orthodox Rabbi Shmuley Boteach
• "I am always amazed at how the Bible, that portrays my Lord embracing the outcasts, touching the lepers, welcoming the Samaritans, not judging the woman taken in the act of adultery, and inviting 'all of ye,' not 'some of ye,' to 'come unto me,' can, in the hands of a few distorted people be turned into a book of hatred, violence and judgment." -J.S. Spong
• "In reality, there are no biblical literalists, only selective literalists. By abolishing slavery and ordaining women, millions of Protestants have gone far beyond biblical literalism. It's time we did the same for homophobia." -William Sloane Coffin

[Just Adam]

Eleanor Roosevelt

• You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing which you think you cannot do.
• No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
• Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one.
• It is not fair to ask of others what you are not willing to do yourself.
• What is to give light must endure the burning.
• Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
• When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?
• Friendship with oneself is all important because without it one cannot be friends with anybody else in the world. <- one i struggle with
• You can't move so fast that you try to change the mores faster than people can accept it. That doesn't mean you do nothing, but it means that you do the things that need to be done according to priority.
• The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.
• As for accomplishments, I just did what I had to do as things came along.
• A mature person is one who is does not think only in absolutes, who is able to be objective even when deeply stirred emotionally, who has learned that there is both good and bad in all people and all things, and who walks humbly and deals charitably with the circumstances of life, knowing that in this world no one is all-knowing and therefore all of us need both love and charity. (from "It Seems to Me" 1954)
• She would rather light candles than curse the darkness, and her glow has warmed the world. (Adlai Stevenson, about Eleanor Roosevelt)

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i think she says all the right things about life

[partietraumatic]

I personally believe alot of ignorant people completely miss the point of the bible. It is not supposed to be taken literally. It needs to be taken not at face value. It has a fairly simple message,that god wants his creations to love each other and be good to each other.

If any christian seriously believes that god would want hatred towards a group of his creations then they are seriously miss understanding what god is,and have been completely taken in by the twisting of the original message,which has been undertaken by many religions,to give them self control.

These lyrics come from a song called 'A letter from God to man' and i love them

So I’m writing to apologize for all the horrors committed in my name,
Although that was never what I intended,
I feel I should take my share of the blame.
All the good I tried to do was corrupted
when organised religion got into full swing,
What I thought were quite clear messages were taken to unusual extremes.
My teachings taken out of context to meet the agendas of others,
Interpretations taken to many different ways and hidden meanings discovered

Religion became a tool, for the weak to control the strong
With all these new morals and ethics, survival of the fittest was gone
No longer could the biggest man simply take whatever he needed
‘cause damnation was the price if certain rules were not heeded
Some of the deeds committed in my name
just made me wonder were I went wrong.
Back at the start when I created this, the foundation seemed so strong.

[Ben]

All of the quotes you made which seem to speak about homosexuality are either from the Old Testament or from St. Paul. Putting aside the Old Testament which was often "corrected" by Jesus in the New Testament (showing how Christians should not accept that the Bible is the perfect word of God), I've never been too keen on Paul. The teachings of Paul seem to be significantly more radical than those of Jesus. And I think that Christians should not take them as they are.

I think that the most important thing to note with Christianity and homosexuality is that Jesus never addressed homosexuality. The closest we can get to him condemning is a few obscure quotes which aren't related to the issue at all. If homosexuality was such a huge sin as some denominations like to point out it is, Jesus would have spoken out against it. To me, the way he didn't speak about homosexuality is a signal that it was no issue.
This is the same for Jesus and women. The fact that he so much as spoke to a Samaritan woman at the well and healed women, treating them as equals, goes to show how he was for the time a radical feminist. All you have to do is look through what the New Testament said Jesus did to see the true essence of his teachings being extremely liberal. In my opinion, St. Paul ruined Jesus's teachings a bit.

Oh and I also seriously doubt that if the Christian God exists, Hell also exists. But that's another story.

[Owen]

A bit of natural history for you. Religion evolved out of homo sapian's larger than normal neocortex, which is necessary for religious thought. The reason we evolved as a species with the capability for faith and not as one without the capability for faith is that faith grew out of morals, and morals make a species work together to survive, and a communal species has many advantages over a solitary species. As such, religion evolved as a way to promote positive behavior for the purpose of perpetuating the species.

For example, in the olden days, there was a good chance that eating pork could kill you. As such, it was prohibited by the religious community in order to save the species. Also, in the olden days (and this is the key part), there was a very good chance of the human race dying out. We were spread pretty thin, and we didn't have the greatest natural defenses against becoming food for other species. One way to address this problem could have been to tell people to have as much sex as possible, but that would lead to single mothers and fathers who don't take responsibility for their children.

So, the religious community came up with the idea of monogamy, where one man and one woman get together for the purpose of making as many kids as possible. In order to promote this idea, they banned premarital sex between men and women. However, in the olden days, casual homosexual relationships were quite common, so a man could avoid having premarital sex with a woman by having it instead with a man. In order to cover up that loopholes, they banned premarital sex between two men and two women. And thus the roots religion-based homophobia was set.

Originally Posted by digsy

The other thing was the belief that all the pillars of the Christian faith are fallible except for God. Modern authorities on Earth (ie the Pope and the Church) are supposed to have the task of updating the Bible and Christian teachings to be constantly relevant and meaningful as time goes by. While I believe the Church often fails in this task, it is somewhat reassuring to know that they admit that religion is a mutable thing, and must change with the times. Therefore, nothing (other than the supremacy of God) is set in stone. The Bible may be used as a guide, but not the law.

This. Religious texts are meant to serve as guides on how to live a good life, not a way to condemn your fellow man. In the olden days, marriage between two men and two women wasn't a possibility, so all homosexual sex was premarital. As such, all homosexual sex was banned. Times have changed, however, and though a gay marriage may not serve the original practical purposes of marriage, a loving, monogamous gay relationship is no different a relationship between a man and a woman in God's eyes. (I should note that I am an atheist, but if God existed, he would be totally down with homosexuality.)

[shimmersky]

http://www.hrc.org/scripture/ --The "Out in Scripture" Archive

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%20139 --Psalm 139

God bless you.

[jbb1236]

Quick off topic suggestion, does everyone realize that there is no description of hell in the bible, it comes from dante's divine comedy, so who knows maybe hell is semi-pleasant. Another thing, as far as any of the Leviticus stuff, it's all a code for holy people, not common people, if you read the first part of Leviticus it says that, I think that's what a lot of people forget, this could be a repeat but I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, there's a lot of it. Also in the New Testament somewhere Jesus forms a "New Covenant" with all mankind, thus wiping away all the previous material, the Old Testament seems like inspiration, faith-building, and background info. Also God does love every one, and the Christian religion teaches all to love everyone, and I believe those who hate are committing a bigger, for lack of a better term, sin than any of the other traditional sins.

[NateDawg]

Originally Posted by shimmersky

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%20139 --Psalm 139

God bless you.

Thanks, I loved that.

I'd like to point something out- all of the quotes you have chosen are from the New International Version. Do you know how many times that version has been translated? As far as I know, the Bible was written in Hebrew, translated into Latin in the Middle Ages, translated into English for King James circa 1611, and changed or translated hundreds of times since then. There's really no way to know if what we think is in the Bible was actually in the original books. It also means that translators are free to interpret things based on their own beliefs and opinions, and put those interpretations into their Bible.

Also, the quotes that specifically referred to homosexuality were almost exclusively in the Old Testament, which is highly disregarded as far as thou-shalt's and thou-shalt-not's these days.

By the way, "BIBLE is Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth" is... just not true. Bible is a word, not an acronym. It can also mean the holy book of any religion.