Religion and rationality

[Pseudojim]

Now I know a lot of people have no choice in their faith, they are raised into it. Children are by their very nature impressionable, especially by their parents, which is how religion continues to self perpetuate. I was christian until the age of 15, by virtue of a very efficient indoctrination program in the schools of new south wales starting from a very early age (a disgusting abuse of authority over impressionable children which i am now working to combat). I'm now a rationalist; at about 15, my logical mind took over, with the aid of some older and more enlightened friends. I'm now a strong agnostic with ignostic tendencies, meaning that through logic, i believe it's impossible to know if any god exists at all, and further from this the very fact that when it comes even to hypothesising a god, the concept of a god is inconceivable and indefinable which renders the very question of whether a god exists or not as entirely moot and pointless bunk.

I was in the chatroom talking to a member who may not wish to be named about this article: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=875425
and i found this line funny: "Dylan changed everything I believed about myself, about God, about family and about love.", and subsequently found out that the member in question himself is christian.

Call me crazy, but does it really make sense to follow a religion that hates you? I mean, i know it hates women too, but it's not so overt and clear hatred when it comes to women as compared to homosexuals, at least the bible doesn't condone stoning all women to death. This guy said he believes a lot of the bible is false, but come on... that's so clearly arbitrary and convenient, he is still throwing his lot in with a fraternity that embraces bigotry and hatred.

It got me to thinking, how many of us are actually christian (or religious at all)? And if one is, how is it possible to reconcile one's orientation with the homophobic dogma of every major religion on the planet (including the supposedly tolerant buddhism)?

The number of times i have been sickened by morons holding up "god hates fags" posters and other bigoted nonsense touted in the name of religion just makes me wonder...

[Shevanel]

I'm a Catholic. My religion doesn't hate the LGBT.

Lemme find some threads for you in which we already went over this.

[Pseudojim]

Also, i should point out i have a catholic friend who is gay, he went to his priest seeking advice on what to do about himself. It went a little like this:

Friend: Father, i am gay
Priest: You should pray to god to cure your gayness
Friend: But father, i don't think i want to be cured, this is how i was born.
Priest: Then the catholic church is not for you.

The line "Then the catholic church is not for you." is absolutely what the priest told him, word for word.

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I'm a Catholic. My religion doesn't hate the LGBT.

excuse me???

[Shevanel]

It's too bad your friend was there then. I also went to a prominent Catholic High School on Long Island, and went to Church before that many times. I believe what I believe. Just because that church, or that priest doesn't know what he's talking about, doesn't mean the whole religion feels the same. My school most definitely didn't teach that. They were quite accepting.

[djt820]

Ok, here comes Atheist Dylan to the rescue!:
Religion is moral blinding. It induces people to follow morals that are 100s, if not 1000s years old. The concept of God and believing in God is nothing more than comfort and to believe humans have a reason of living. Religion is one of the most corrupt, idiotic, and unquestioned institutions that the world has ever seen and I believe it is destroying the human race.
Btw, Im not really atheist XD
Great thread by the way! Your original post is so much better written than anything I would of came up for this subject.

[Pseudojim]

That's awesome i'm glad you found acceptance in your church. But as far as i am aware, according to catholic doctrine, while homosexuality in itself as a state of being is not a sin, homosexual acts are, as are any sexual acts outside of marriage. it has an internal logic.

[Shevanel]

Originally Posted by Pseudojim

That's awesome i'm glad you found acceptance in your church. But as far as i am aware, according to catholic doctrine, while homosexuality in itself as a state of being is not a sin, homosexual acts are, as are any sexual acts outside of marriage. it has an internal logic.

And you are correct. Everyone is going to Hell

[Apocalypte]

Originally Posted by SurferDude420

It's too bad your friend was there then. I also went to a prominent Catholic High School on Long Island, and went to Church before that many times. I believe what I believe. Just because that church, or that priest doesn't know what he's talking about, doesn't mean the whole religion feels the same. My school most definitely didn't teach that. They were quite accepting.

You are very lucky to have been taught by a very liberal Catholic high school then. I went to a Catholic school too (all girls convent school run by the Sisters of Mercy), left in 2002, and attitudes were very different.

Eh. When I believed in all that mumbo-jumbo, I was quite able to separate my rational thoughts from my religious morals. I simply convinced myself that some parts of the bible were 'all right in a certain time and place' or that they were allegorical in nature. Of course, that didn't help explain why I should believe the rest of it if some of it was wrong...

But it's not that crazy to see how people can believe two conflicting things. Even when the evidence for one of them is next to non-existent.

[Shevanel]

Originally Posted by Apocalypte

You are very lucky to have been taught by a very liberal Catholic high school then. I went to a Catholic school too (all girls convent school run by the Sisters of Mercy), left in 2002, and attitudes were very different.

Lol, my high school was not Very LIberal or Liberal at all xD trust me xD Neither am I for that matter But that's on my own accords

A few threads to look at:
What Religion Are you?
Religion

[Pseudojim]

I simply convinced myself that some parts of the bible were 'all right in a certain time and place' or that they were allegorical in nature.

yes, a huge number of people do this, it's entirely arbitrary of course. But it's necessary for the rational minded, if they are to continue believing in the rest of the dogma.

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Originally Posted by SurferDude420

And you are correct. Everyone is going to Hell

and doesn't that just give you a warm fuzzy feeling in your tummy?

[jony8472]

Originally Posted by Pseudojim

Now I know a lot of people have no choice in their faith, they are raised into it. Children are by their very nature impressionable, especially by their parents, which is how religion continues to self perpetuate. I was christian until the age of 15, by virtue of a very efficient indoctrination program in the schools of new south wales starting from a very early age (a disgusting abuse of authority over impressionable children which i am now working to combat). I'm now a rationalist; at about 15, my logical mind took over, with the aid of some older and more enlightened friends. I'm now a strong agnostic with ignostic tendencies, meaning that through logic, i believe it's impossible to know if any god exists at all, and further from this the very fact that when it comes even to hypothesising a god, the concept of a god is inconceivable and indefinable which renders the very question of whether a god exists or not as entirely moot and pointless bunk.

I was in the chatroom talking to a member who may not wish to be named about this article: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=875425
and i found this line funny: "Dylan changed everything I believed about myself, about God, about family and about love.", and subsequently found out that the member in question himself is christian.

Call me crazy, but does it really make sense to follow a religion that hates you? I mean, i know it hates women too, but it's not so overt and clear hatred when it comes to women as compared to homosexuals, at least the bible doesn't condone stoning all women to death. This guy said he believes a lot of the bible is false, but come on... that's so clearly arbitrary and convenient, he is still throwing his lot in with a fraternity that embraces bigotry and hatred.

It got me to thinking, how many of us are actually christian (or religious at all)? And if one is, how is it possible to reconcile one's orientation with the homophobic dogma of every major religion on the planet (including the supposedly tolerant buddhism)?

The number of times i have been sickened by morons holding up "god hates fags" posters and other bigoted nonsense touted in the name of religion just makes me wonder...

I'm Catholic, and aside from the argument I take offence to the way certain values have been attacked. Whilst I respect the right to voice your opinion, I think it would be great to do it in a way that didn't put down what other people believe.

[haelmarie]

Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.

From the dearly beloved former leader of the Catholic church, Pope John Paul II. I, for one, do not miss him at all.

The thing that turned me away from religion was the fact that no one can make up their freaking mind on who's right. (OK, in reality it was The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, but how cliche is that?) In real, empirical studies, we can pretty much say who's out of their mind or way off of the base. But in religion, we can't do that. The sixteen headed Hindu god is no less possible than Jesus Christ or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. How on earth can you defend something like that? What I'm trying to say is: what makes you believe in Jesus Christ over Mohammed or Buddha? The simple answer is usually how you were brought up. It's that simple. And so I thought if there was any empirical evidence for Jesus Christ being the messiah. Giving the crazy nature of the Bible, I would think not.

Which brings me to a similar point. Many Christians will look at ancient Mesopotamian mythology or the Greek pantheon and say that those are myths, yet ignore the own mythological nature of their own religion. Thanks to the work of anthropologists, we can trace the origins of Judaism to back to similar roots as ancient "mythological" Middle Eastern religions, yet somehow those are myths while Christianity is the truth. I do not claim to understand this.

As for my views: I do not care much about religion. I see it more as a symptom of a problem rather than the problem itself. People do not care to educate themselves or challenge the previous generations on matters of tradition, so they remain religious. The promises of a loving parental figure and eternal justice may be comforting for some. But the thing is, if everyone in their current state were to lose religion, it would be anarchy. If you want to get rid of religion, you would have to attack ignorance and our social structure first.

This is bound to come off as condescending, so let me end with this: I think there are multiple ways of realizing truths. If your way is through religion, I can respect that. I do not claim to understand it, but I can respect the symbolic meaning of your truths, if that makes any sense at all.

[Pseudojim]

Originally Posted by jony8472

I'm Catholic, and aside from the argument I take offence to the way certain values have been attacked. Whilst I respect the right to voice your opinion, I think it would be great to do it in a way that didn't put down what other people believe.

Please be specific, i am very open to constructive criticism

[Shevanel]

Originally Posted by Pseudojim

[/COLOR]

and doesn't that just give you a warm fuzzy feeling in your tummy?

I was being sarcastic in case you couldn't tell

Also Read THIS POST from an old thread. It's brilliantly written by Holly.

[Pseudojim]

Originally Posted by SurferDude420

I was being sarcastic in case you couldn't tell

Also Read THIS POST from an old thread. It's brilliantly written by Holly.

looked like abject sophistry i have seen a thousand times to me. obfuscating clear meaning as "interpretable in different ways" is just underhanded. I admire his attempts to bring tolerance to the fore, but attempting to marry the bible with such tolerance is in my opinion unbelievably naive.

[edit]that entire post was a transparent attempt at justifying being both gay and christian. Even in cases where there is (i assume) backable research, there is a missing logical link between identifying the historical facts and assigning them to a particular bible passage. It's seems unreasonably convoluted to go into such depth with no reason for it. Wouldn't it be more logical to look at homophobic diatribe and conclude that yes, it is indeed homophobic?

This is where the "interpretability" of the bible gets used to defend its more backward and hatemongering passages. It's convoluted and fallacious logic being used to deny the existence of bigotry.

[SRSLYMARK]

Originally Posted by haelmarie

I think there are multiple ways of realizing truths. If your way is through religion, I can respect that. I do not claim to understand it, but I can respect the symbolic meaning of your truths, if that makes any sense at all.

I absolutely agree with this. I identify as atheist, I have many friends who are of a more religious standing, but we are able to respect each other and it doesn't cause conflict. It's really pretty great.

I really don't think it's possible to be gay and identify with any large, established religion, but to those who do it, more power to you.

[xequar]

Originally Posted by SurferDude420

I'm a Catholic. My religion doesn't hate the LGBT.

Lemme find some threads for you in which we already went over this.

Liar.

Some members of the RCC laity are ok with gays, but the church and many of its members certainly are anything BUT ok with gays. Reference their efforts in California (along with the Mormons) and in Maine (biggest player in the Yes on 1 question to stop marriage from being enacted there) if you're confused on this. Oh, and of course, statements from Pope John Paul 2 and Pope Naziguy the Eleventeenth should help clear up any confusion.

[djt820]

Originally Posted by xequar

Liar.

Some members of the RCC laity are ok with gays, but the church and many of its members certainly are anything BUT ok with gays. Reference their efforts in California (along with the Mormons) and in Maine (biggest player in the Yes on 1 question to stop marriage from being enacted there) if you're confused on this.

I like youuuuu

[Pseudojim]

Perhaps the word 'hate' is the key word of that assertion, upon which the basis of refuting it sits.

In the strictest and most literal sense of the word, i'm sure hate is less applicable. But in terms of intolerance and complete lack of understanding, it fits like a glove.