Patriotism - Empty Closets - A safe online community for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered people coming out

Roralo · 14th Nov 2009, 11:31 AM

As members of the LGBT community, we are often subjected to the unfair laws of our country that do not protect us or enable us the same rights as others. Some of us are lucky to live in countrys where this is hardly an issue, where the government backs everyone equally. So tell me, what are your views on patriotism? Do you feel loyalty to your country?

This thread stemmed off from another one in LGBT rights and issues, and I expressed my opinion that as much as I commended the boy for standing for what is right, standing for the Pledge of Allegiance was not favorable in my eyes. Even though America can be difficult, bigoted, and sometimes downright arrogant, I really believe that there is hope and that America is fighting to change and become better. I am proud of my country and all it stands for, knowing that what is bad will not always be a flaw through change. I'm not overly patriotic, and nor do I snub my country when things look a little worse for wear at the time. And what of you my fellow Americans? Do you feel love for the USA, though sometimes you might feel a little mifed? And of others, the French people out there and the British, how do you all feel?

Someone commented in the previous thread that patriotism was the virtue of the vicious.
I am patriotic that I love the values and ideals that we stand for, that is what makes me patriotic for my country.

Just Adam · 14th Nov 2009, 11:41 AM

im patriotic..i know this countrys shit and i know it annoys and depresses the hell out of me... but i stick by her...

and i know other countrys suck jsut as bad if not worse so its ok....

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN! XD haha

endless poetry · 14th Nov 2009, 11:49 AM

Because God know's I'm a monarchist nationalist who loves my country.

I wouldn't wear flags or anything,
but I do care to memorize the words in our national anthem,
and defend our nation in hostile conversations with foreigners...

plus there's not really too much to hate about Canada... ... so with slight doubt I voted yes,...

Edit: D: this question's about Americans' patriotism isn't it
(oops)

Black Cat · 14th Nov 2009, 11:50 AM

I love America. I am extremely lucky to live in this country. I am also very thankful for my good fortune to live here, as well as all the freedoms I am permitted.

However, the LGBT inequality is very concerning. I may never have certain rights that other people are allowed, and that to me is the epitome of injustice. Seeing as how my country is built on the foundations of freedom, and a great deal of our population came here to have freedoms they were denied in their native countries I feel that all freedom should be equal.

Things are looking up in America though, at least out my window. I think that in due time these injustices and inequalities will turn around. We have to be patient, and I know that is not easy considering how far other countries are along in the fight for LGBT rights. Some things have already turned around compared to where they were just a few mere months ago.

In short, yes I am patriotic and proud of my country. Of course there are things I am unhappy about, but there are also some freedoms I have that people in other countries do not possess.

Brandford · 14th Nov 2009, 11:51 AM

As I see is a country is an object, and an object doesn't deserve loyalty, animals and people deserve loyalty. In the case of the USA, considering how they treat our cause they most definitely don't deserve the LBGT community's loyalty. When we have equal rights then they might deserve some loyalty. The U.S. has always been behind socially, Canada has always had to be every minority's safe haven when it comes to search for equal rights, even since slavery. The U.S. is always soo behind the times, its pathetic this country still wallows in ignorance.

haelmarie · 14th Nov 2009, 11:53 AM

Canadian patriotism doesn't exist in the same way that American patriotism does. The only time I ever see Canadian flags is when I'm in the rural areas of Ontario or the residential areas of my city. When I went through the bible belt of America last year, everyone had either an American flag or a Jesus sticker or a combination of the two.

I'm patriotic in the sense that I'm proud of my country's progressive stances and I am interested in our history, but that's about as far as it goes.

14th Nov 2009, 12:02 PM

Patriotism implies that there's some sort of unique quality inherent to a country, which is something I strongly disagree with.

The symbols and values that are supposed to represent a nation are actually chosen as such by a select part of a society who then proceeds to universalize them by means of certain mechanisms including but not limited to the educational system.

The development of certain countries in terms of human rights (and the lack thereof of some others) are the result of a complex web of economic and political issues and not simply due to some kind of characteristic feature of the population. Otherwise, we would be led to believe that, for instance, Norwegians are naturally better people than Egyptians because they have anti-discriminatory laws that the latter lack.

So, in a nutshell: no, I'm not patriotic since I don't believe in the traditional concept of 'nation'.

**Ben** · 14th Nov 2009, 12:31 PM

I think that in context the UK is good at the moment.
However, I wouldn't blindly defend it if I disagreed with its policies. And I don't feel pride for being born here; I feel lucky, but I don't feel proud. So no, I am not patriotic at all. Things like the nearest major city to me gaining its wealth from the slave trade don't make me warm to the history of these lands, either.

Just Adam · 14th Nov 2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben

I think that in context the UK is good at the moment.
However, I wouldn't blindly defend it if I disagreed with its policies. And I don't feel pride for being born here; I feel lucky, but I don't feel proud. So no, I am not patriotic at all. Things like the nearest major city to me gaining its wealth from the slave trade don't make me warm to the history of these lands, either.

if you dont agree with what happens in the country stand up for it and face them down

**Ben** · 14th Nov 2009, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Adam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben

I think that in context the UK is good at the moment.
However, I wouldn't blindly defend it if I disagreed with its policies. And I don't feel pride for being born here; I feel lucky, but I don't feel proud. So no, I am not patriotic at all. Things like the nearest major city to me gaining its wealth from the slave trade don't make me warm to the history of these lands, either.

if you dont agree with what happens in the country stand up for it and face them down

I Think the UK is okay but like everywhere else it's not perfect. And I'm not exactly the fountain of all political knowledge but I'll always make it known if I disagree with stuff.
For example, if we were to reintroduce the death penalty (as most people here support apparently), I would rampantly oppose and support campaigns against it. =)

Just Adam · 14th Nov 2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Adam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben

I think that in context the UK is good at the moment.
However, I wouldn't blindly defend it if I disagreed with its policies. And I don't feel pride for being born here; I feel lucky, but I don't feel proud. So no, I am not patriotic at all. Things like the nearest major city to me gaining its wealth from the slave trade don't make me warm to the history of these lands, either.

if you dont agree with what happens in the country stand up for it and face them down

I Think the UK is okay but like everywhere else it's not perfect. And I'm not exactly the fountain of all political knowledge but I'll always make it known if I disagree with stuff.
For example, if we were to reintroduce the death penalty (as most people here support apparently), I would rampantly oppose and support campaigns against it. =)

me too as where do you draw teh line on what to kill peopel for :S

but thats why this country has that great old tradition of revolting lol... down with the institution

lol

14th Nov 2009, 12:59 PM

Yes I am

Roralo · 14th Nov 2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandford

In the case of the USA, considering how they treat our cause they most definitely don't deserve the LBGT community's loyalty..

Wow...
And comments like these make the LGBT community look untrustworthy. The fact that America is in a state of change, although a slow, gradual, and agonizing process that it is, is enough for me to have loyalty to the USA.

This thread applies to all patriotism, if you are Finnish, Thai, Russian or Brazilian or whatever, what are YOUR views on patriotism as a member of the LGBT community?

RaeofLite · 14th Nov 2009, 01:33 PM

I'm Canadian so I'm pretty darn proud.

We have marriage rights, antihate crime laws and several other things.

I'm still pretty big on fighting for LGBT rights all around the world (including the southern neighbour.) I'll be in it with you guys!

14th Nov 2009, 02:11 PM

i say i am patriotic. i love my country and wouldnt swap it for anywhere else.

14th Nov 2009, 02:20 PM

I am patriotic for Scotland only. NEVER for the UK.

Pseudojim · 14th Nov 2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterons

Patriotism implies that there's some sort of unique quality inherent to a country, which is something I strongly disagree with.

The symbols and values that are supposed to represent a nation are actually chosen as such by a select part of a society who then proceeds to universalize them by means of certain mechanisms including but not limited to the educational system.

The development of certain countries in terms of human rights (and the lack thereof of some others) are the result of a complex web of economic and political issues and not simply due to some kind of characteristic feature of the population. Otherwise, we would be led to believe that, for instance, Norwegians are naturally better people than Egyptians because they have anti-discriminatory laws that the latter lack.

So, in a nutshell: no, I'm not patriotic since I don't believe in the traditional concept of 'nation'.

Good answer. Patriotism is just arbitrary, it makes no sense to me either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haelmarie

I'm patriotic in the sense that I'm proud of my country's progressive stances and I am interested in our history, but that's about as far as it goes.

I wouldn't even go that far... Much as i'm glad that certain progressive policies exist, realistically i had nothing to do with them being put in place, i'm just lucky i was born here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Hicks

"i was over in australia and i got asked "are you proud to be an american" and i was "Well... i don't know... I didn't have a lot to do with it, you know? My parents fucked there, that's about all... Y'know. I was in the spirit realm in that time, so... 'Fuck in Paris!!! Fuck in Paris!!!' But they couldn't hear me because i didn't have a mouth... I was a spirit without lungs or a mouth... or vocal cords. They fucked here. Okay, i'm proud.

I hate patriotism, i can't stand it man, makes me fucking sick, it's a round world the last time i checked, okay? You know what i mean? I hate patriotism. In fact, that's how we can stop patriotism i think! Instead of putting stars and stripes on our flags we can put pictures of our parents fucking! Gather people round that flag and see your dad hunched over your mom's big four-by-four butt. See if any boot rally mentality can circle round that fucking image. God damn, I’m out of here! Fuck it - Let’s go garden

pianomike · 14th Nov 2009, 03:03 PM

I am very patriotic. Even thought things are not the greatest for the LGBT community, just think how far we've come in the last few years!! Thanks i'm thankful for!

djt820 · 14th Nov 2009, 03:06 PM

Patriotic is what I am not.

Pseudojim · 14th Nov 2009, 03:07 PM

patriotism in australia doesn't exist at anywhere near the level as it seems to in america either...

Being forced as children to memorise a pledge and recite it hand-over-heart strikes me as brainwashing, and not a little disturbing.

View Poll Results: Are you patriotic?
Yes	50	45.87%
No	40	36.70%
Not sure	19	17.43%
Voters: 109. You may not vote on this poll

14th Nov 2009, 11:31 AM	#1
Roralo Bopping,dropping and shaking life Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Some people Location: The Sunniest State in the USA Posts: 182 Join Date: Apr 2009	Patriotism As members of the LGBT community, we are often subjected to the unfair laws of our country that do not protect us or enable us the same rights as others. Some of us are lucky to live in countrys where this is hardly an issue, where the government backs everyone equally. So tell me, what are your views on patriotism? Do you feel loyalty to your country? This thread stemmed off from another one in LGBT rights and issues, and I expressed my opinion that as much as I commended the boy for standing for what is right, standing for the Pledge of Allegiance was not favorable in my eyes. Even though America can be difficult, bigoted, and sometimes downright arrogant, I really believe that there is hope and that America is fighting to change and become better. I am proud of my country and all it stands for, knowing that what is bad will not always be a flaw through change. I'm not overly patriotic, and nor do I snub my country when things look a little worse for wear at the time. And what of you my fellow Americans? Do you feel love for the USA, though sometimes you might feel a little mifed? And of others, the French people out there and the British, how do you all feel? Someone commented in the previous thread that patriotism was the virtue of the vicious. I am patriotic that I love the values and ideals that we stand for, that is what makes me patriotic for my country. __________________ Love.Live.Laugh

14th Nov 2009, 11:41 AM	#2
Just Adam Just passing through Full Member Gender: Something Orientation: Dunno Out Status: If they ask i will tell them Location: Wherever Age: 23 Posts: 6,002 Join Date: Mar 2009	Re: Patriotism im patriotic..i know this countrys shit and i know it annoys and depresses the hell out of me... but i stick by her... and i know other countrys suck jsut as bad if not worse so its ok.... GOD SAVE THE QUEEN! XD haha __________________ There Used To Be A Point Of Things.

14th Nov 2009, 11:49 AM	#3
endless poetry We're off to see the wizard Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: A few friends know Location: Ottawa Age: 18 Posts: 547 Join Date: Aug 2009	Re: Patriotism Because God know's I'm a monarchist nationalist who loves my country. I wouldn't wear flags or anything, but I do care to memorize the words in our national anthem, and defend our nation in hostile conversations with foreigners... plus there's not really too much to hate about Canada... ... so with slight doubt I voted yes,... Edit: D: this question's about Americans' patriotism isn't it (oops) __________________ Se eu te pudesse abraçar. Written no book of this life, I am a mere pamphlet who thinks that I am a best selling novel. Last edited by endless poetry; 14th Nov 2009 at 11:51 AM.. Reason: reading question fail on my part

14th Nov 2009, 11:50 AM	#4
Black Cat As Seen On Hoarders... Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: This cat is out of the bag - I mean closet Location: Pennsylvania, with the cows Age: 21 Posts: 2,391 Join Date: Jun 2009	Re: Patriotism I love America. I am extremely lucky to live in this country. I am also very thankful for my good fortune to live here, as well as all the freedoms I am permitted. However, the LGBT inequality is very concerning. I may never have certain rights that other people are allowed, and that to me is the epitome of injustice. Seeing as how my country is built on the foundations of freedom, and a great deal of our population came here to have freedoms they were denied in their native countries I feel that all freedom should be equal. Things are looking up in America though, at least out my window. I think that in due time these injustices and inequalities will turn around. We have to be patient, and I know that is not easy considering how far other countries are along in the fight for LGBT rights. Some things have already turned around compared to where they were just a few mere months ago. In short, yes I am patriotic and proud of my country. Of course there are things I am unhappy about, but there are also some freedoms I have that people in other countries do not possess. __________________ "Your life is an occasion. Rise to it." - Mr. Magorium

14th Nov 2009, 11:51 AM	#5
Brandford Friendly Misanthrope Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: everyone that asks,my mom (i think) and my sister Location: Woodbridge, VA Age: 19 Posts: 6,656 Join Date: Apr 2008	Re: Patriotism As I see is a country is an object, and an object doesn't deserve loyalty, animals and people deserve loyalty. In the case of the USA, considering how they treat our cause they most definitely don't deserve the LBGT community's loyalty. When we have equal rights then they might deserve some loyalty. The U.S. has always been behind socially, Canada has always had to be every minority's safe haven when it comes to search for equal rights, even since slavery. The U.S. is always soo behind the times, its pathetic this country still wallows in ignorance. __________________ "I find nothing more depressing than optimism." --Paul Fussell Last edited by Brandford; 14th Nov 2009 at 11:53 AM..

14th Nov 2009, 11:53 AM	#6
haelmarie it's ok to be afraid Full Member Gender: No. Orientation: No. Age: 18 Posts: 767 Join Date: Oct 2009	Re: Patriotism Canadian patriotism doesn't exist in the same way that American patriotism does. The only time I ever see Canadian flags is when I'm in the rural areas of Ontario or the residential areas of my city. When I went through the bible belt of America last year, everyone had either an American flag or a Jesus sticker or a combination of the two. I'm patriotic in the sense that I'm proud of my country's progressive stances and I am interested in our history, but that's about as far as it goes.

14th Nov 2009, 12:02 PM	#7
Mysterons Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Patriotism Patriotism implies that there's some sort of unique quality inherent to a country, which is something I strongly disagree with. The symbols and values that are supposed to represent a nation are actually chosen as such by a select part of a society who then proceeds to universalize them by means of certain mechanisms including but not limited to the educational system. The development of certain countries in terms of human rights (and the lack thereof of some others) are the result of a complex web of economic and political issues and not simply due to some kind of characteristic feature of the population. Otherwise, we would be led to believe that, for instance, Norwegians are naturally better people than Egyptians because they have anti-discriminatory laws that the latter lack. So, in a nutshell: no, I'm not patriotic since I don't believe in the traditional concept of 'nation'.

14th Nov 2009, 12:31 PM	#8
Ben Was Invisible. EC Moderator Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Out to everyone Age: 20 Posts: 3,704 Join Date: Jul 2008	Re: Patriotism I think that in context the UK is good at the moment. However, I wouldn't blindly defend it if I disagreed with its policies. And I don't feel pride for being born here; I feel lucky, but I don't feel proud. So no, I am not patriotic at all. Things like the nearest major city to me gaining its wealth from the slave trade don't make me warm to the history of these lands, either.

14th Nov 2009, 12:59 PM	#12
71390S Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Patriotism Yes I am

14th Nov 2009, 01:33 PM	#14
RaeofLite I've got the moves like Jagger Full Member Gender: ♀ Orientation: Sapphicly inclined Out Status: My closet is for clothes! Location: BC, Canada Age: 23 Posts: 3,111 Join Date: Apr 2009	Re: Patriotism I'm Canadian so I'm pretty darn proud. We have marriage rights, antihate crime laws and several other things. I'm still pretty big on fighting for LGBT rights all around the world (including the southern neighbour.) I'll be in it with you guys! __________________ People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." -Bonnie Jean Wasmund (and the lesbians)

14th Nov 2009, 02:11 PM	#15
gaz83 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Patriotism i say i am patriotic. i love my country and wouldnt swap it for anywhere else.

14th Nov 2009, 02:20 PM	#16
Jiggles Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Patriotism I am patriotic for Scotland only. NEVER for the UK.

14th Nov 2009, 03:03 PM	#18
pianomike Your Lover Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Queer Out Status: to only 5 people (and everyone reading this) Location: New York Age: 20 Posts: 358 Join Date: Oct 2008	Re: Patriotism I am very patriotic. Even thought things are not the greatest for the LGBT community, just think how far we've come in the last few years!! Thanks i'm thankful for! __________________ To live would be an awfully big adventure... to die would be an awfully big adventure. - Peter Pan

14th Nov 2009, 03:06 PM	#19
djt820 Brutally Honest Regular Member Gender: Male Orientation: DICKS EVERYWHERE Out Status: Like A Cock Slapping Your Face Kind-of Out. Location: SoCal Age: 19 Posts: 1,282 Join Date: Feb 2009	Re: Patriotism Patriotic is what I am not. __________________

14th Nov 2009, 03:07 PM	#20
Pseudojim Part robot Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Bi - Kinsey 2ish Out Status: All but family Location: Australia Age: 27 Posts: 2,154 Join Date: Sep 2009	Re: Patriotism patriotism in australia doesn't exist at anywhere near the level as it seems to in america either... Being forced as children to memorise a pledge and recite it hand-over-heart strikes me as brainwashing, and not a little disturbing.