PRIDE club speaking with Catholic university heads

about a month and a half ago, the PRIDE club at my university sponsored a dance. it was approved for the first time without question, but then a week or 2 before the dance was to happen, the university went back on the approval and said that a pride dance would go against the catholic values of our school because, and their argument was that it leads to premarital sex.

in the end we fought them and managed to get the dance re approved, but it's generally accepted that it was only approved because ABC news got involved and it would give the school a bad name to be so hypocritical.

so that's the back story.
now, the head of the catholic ministry of our school (monsigneur) and the university head are coming in to speak with the pride club, and as members, we've been asked to have questions and reactions for them.

so, because i'm not one that generally asks questions ever, i was wondering what other ECers might think about the situation so i might have something to bring up. there arent really rules, we can talk about anything from reactions to the decision making or why is being gay wrong. let me know, thanks

Ask them if they have any empirical evidence to back up their claims, and the Bible doesn't count.

[Greggers]

Originally Posted by 71390S

Ask them if they have any empirical evidence to back up their claims, and the Bible doesn't count.

If its a catholic university i dont think asking them to look at it in a non-religous way will work. Thats like asking the wheelchair basketball team to try and play without wheelchairs, so to speak I dont know much about catholic universities but i know catholic and christian high schools are based upon the bible, thats just what they are about. Your not going to get them to look at you in a secular point of view.

*cough* anyways...

Assuming they have other school dances...i might ask them why they think a "Pride" dance is going to lead to pre-marital sex over a normal dance. Its assuming because it has something LGBT attached to it that it = sex and thats just plain wrong. Call them out on that double standard if it exists.

If thats not the case, try and ask why they think a dance will lead to sex in the first place. Maybe try and hammer in the fact that the less freedom you have to express yourself through healthy activity's like dancing the more likely you are to find it other places, aka sex. Its a semi-long shot, but it could be worked into a nice counter point.

[Shevanel]

The Catholic School I went to wasn't based on the Bible ^ =/ Def not.

they used the school's constitution which states that anything that goes against their catholic values can be turned down.

i think one of our main arguments was always, how come gays are specifically targeted in extramarital sex and not other groups that have dances actually, so while it's a good point, i think its going to be used. anything else?

i'm really just terrible at asking questions, i have a habit of justifying and reconciling things in my own mind.

Originally Posted by Greggers

If its a catholic university i dont think asking them to look at it in a non-religous way will work. Thats like asking the wheelchair basketball team to try and play without wheelchairs, so to speak I dont know much about catholic universities but i know catholic and christian high schools are based upon the bible, thats just what they are about. Your not going to get them to look at you in a secular point of view.

*cough* anyways...

Assuming they have other school dances...i might ask them why they think a "Pride" dance is going to lead to pre-marital sex over a normal dance. Its assuming because it has something LGBT attached to it that it = sex and thats just plain wrong. Call them out on that double standard if it exists.

If thats not the case, try and ask why they think a dance will lead to sex in the first place. Maybe try and hammer in the fact that the less freedom you have to express yourself through healthy activity's like dancing the more likely you are to find it other places, aka sex. Its a semi-long shot, but it could be worked into a nice counter point.

I don't see how your suggestions for conversations are less secular than mine, since you JUST typed out advice that approaches it in a non religious manner.

Asking them their reasons and focusing on actual facts may open their eyes to see there is nothing in the bible that says "gay dances make people slutty."

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Originally Posted by paco

they used the school's constitution which states that anything that goes against their catholic values can be turned down.

i think one of our main arguments was always, how come gays are specifically targeted in extramarital sex and not other groups that have dances actually, so while it's a good point, i think its going to be used. anything else?

i'm really just terrible at asking questions, i have a habit of justifying and reconciling things in my own mind.

Seeems like it's not about preventing slutty-ness, it's about preventing homosexuality, which they are against. Have they recognized that?

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Oooh, maybe you could even get info from another school (or schoolS) that has GLBT dances and have them talk to your school about how they are not any less moral. Not exactly a question but it could be helpfull.

[NickT]

Ask them if they eat shellfish. If they do, quote that bible passage saying it's a sin.

[Shevanel]

The teaching in Catholicism (aka, what I learned in school) was not that Homosexuality is a sin, but homosexual acts, which are are by definition fornication which is obviously a sin, regardless of the manner in which the fornication takes place. Basically they're against the having sex for means other than for procreation. Everyone sins anyway, by their standards. Everyone.

[RaeofLite]

I talked to a counsellor the other day, and she said that a lot of people seem to think that being gay/bi has to do with sexsexSEX all the time. ...As if heterosexuality doesn't emphasize that too??

So... you're right on that front. A lot of people I';ve talked to seem to think that too. I guess sex does matter, I mean we are 'sexually' attracted to someone who seems out of the norm, but it's not ALL about the sex. *le sigh* When will the world learn..

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by RaeofLite

I talked to a counsellor the other day, and she said that a lot of people seem to think that being gay/bi has to do with sexsexSEX all the time. ...As if heterosexuality doesn't emphasize that too??

So... you're right on that front. A lot of people I';ve talked to seem to think that too. I guess sex does matter, I mean we are 'sexually' attracted to someone who seems out of the norm, but it's not ALL about the sex. *le sigh* When will the world learn..

Anytime this argument comes up, I always just turn it back on them. "Is heterosexuality all about sex?" Often, that hits home sharply enough to leave them dumbfounded.

[Greggers]

Originally Posted by 71390S

I don't see how your suggestions for conversations are less secular than mine, since you JUST typed out advice that approaches it in a non religious manner.

Its not about that, its about going about it in a way that does not feed them what they want to hear. Ask an administrator at a catholic school to allow your gay dance with the argument "whats wrong with homosexuality if you dont use the bible?" and they will respond with "why would we not use the bible? thats what our faith is. It does not make sense for us not to look at the bible for this topic". I think Jarrett said it best in another forum, something about (total paraphrase hah) how if the school is private/religious they can make up there own rules. They may not be fair rules, but they get to choose them and its out of our hands. So if you want to change there minds, best to play on there terms. AKA the bible counts.

I went to a Christian school, and they too out did not allow us dances, because they felt it (surprise surprise) it would lead to other things, not so nice things. BUT - we managed to get our school dances, eventually. It took alot of reasoning that dancing was in fact not evil and a few school supervisors at every exit of the gymnasium it was held in. We had this fight with administration for a few years, and we found it did not help to try and prove them wrong, it was better to put them at ease about what would happen at the dance (aka supervisors, in our case)

[Darkwing65]

Originally Posted by SurferDude420

The Catholic School I went to wasn't based on the Bible ^ =/ Def not.

Catholicism is based more on the Catholic Dogma and centuries of Catholic philosophy, not so much on the bible. That's kind of why a lot of other "Christian" denominations hate on Catholics.

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I would ask why they think a Pride dance would lead to premarital sex more than a dance sponsored sponsored by some other group.

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Originally Posted by Greggers

If its a catholic university i dont think asking them to look at it in a non-religous way will work. Thats like asking the wheelchair basketball team to try and play without wheelchairs, so to speak I dont know much about catholic universities but i know catholic and christian high schools are based upon the bible, thats just what they are about. Your not going to get them to look at you in a secular point of view.

*cough* anyways...

Assuming they have other school dances...i might ask them why they think a "Pride" dance is going to lead to pre-marital sex over a normal dance. Its assuming because it has something LGBT attached to it that it = sex and thats just plain wrong. Call them out on that double standard if it exists.

If thats not the case, try and ask why they think a dance will lead to sex in the first place. Maybe try and hammer in the fact that the less freedom you have to express yourself through healthy activity's like dancing the more likely you are to find it other places, aka sex. Its a semi-long shot, but it could be worked into a nice counter point.

This is way better articulated than my response

Originally Posted by Darkwing65

Catholicism is based more on the Catholic Dogma and centuries of Catholic philosophy, not so much on the bible. That's kind of why a lot of other "Christian" denominations hate on Catholics.[COLOR="Silver"]

Your statement is simply not true. Catholicism is based on the Bible, and other Christians hate them because of the same reason most people hate other people: ignorance.

And if people are willingly going to a Catholic University, I think people should have realized they would be expected to play by Catholic rules. This is why I went to a public university and not a Catholic one.

Originally Posted by Kevin42

Your statement is simply not true. Catholicism is based on the Bible, and other Christians hate them because of the same reason most people hate other people: ignorance.

And if people are willingly going to a Catholic University, I think people should have realized they would be expected to play by Catholic rules. This is why I went to a public university and not a Catholic one.

well, really, catholicism is based on interpretations of the bible, as are any other christian religions.

and the "catholics hate gays" thing can be true in many cases, but it is not true in many other cases, in fact, most of the student body at my school supported our dance and was upset with administration about it.

and yes, if certain people, namely me, are stupid enough to be willing to go to a catholic university, then we will have to play by their rules; although at the same time, we will fight as hard as we can to influence their rules to accept us. and i'd appreciate you not speaking down to me about it.

[Greggers]

Originally Posted by paco

well, really, catholicism is based on interpretations of the bible, as are any other christian religions.

and the "catholics hate gays" thing can be true in many cases, but it is not true in many other cases, in fact, most of the student body at my school supported our dance and was upset with administration about it.

and yes, if certain people, namely me, are stupid enough to be willing to go to a catholic university, then we will have to play by their rules; although at the same time, we will fight as hard as we can to influence their rules to accept us. and i'd appreciate you not speaking down to me about it.

I definitely Agree Paco. You have to play by their rules, but that does not mean you should ever stop trying to change said rules. You have to make the best with with what your given and never give up, because thats all we really can do.

[Alex19]

premarital sex? were not allowed to get married! wtf kind of shit is that??!! if thats the case, then we might as well have all the sex we can! throw that in their faces for me..

[Astaroth]

Alex said exactly what I was going to say. You can defuse their argument with one simple statement. "Premarital sex presumes that LGBT people can get married afterward. Until marriage is legal for LGBT people, it can't instigate premarital sex because there isn't postmarital sex."

Not only that, but it's just a stupid reason anyway. That's like saying:

Buying gas promotes smoking (since cigarettes are sold in gas stations).
Shopping promotes becoming an accountant (you spend money and should make it a job).
Dance Instructors make good sex workers (dancing and sex are apparently hand-in-hand).

The rationale is just flawed. If they handed you a condom when entering the dance, sure, you could say that the dance promotes promiscuity. Otherwise, it's a bogus argument. Someone could meet their sweetheart in school and go home after school and have sex with their sweetheart. Did school therefore promote sex?