The "gay adolescent" soon will disappear.... - Empty Closets - A safe online community for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered people coming out

Paul_UK · 11th Sep 2005, 04:09 AM

... according to the book reviewed here http://www.365gay.com/entertainment/...90905books.htm

Quote:

New Gay Teenager
Ritch Savin-Williams
Review by Robb Michaels, 365Gay.com Book Editor

The "gay adolescent" soon will disappear, predicts a Cornell University expert on teenage sexuality in The New Gay Teenager.

Ritch Savin-Williams, professor and chair of human development in Cornell's College of Human Ecology, says that these adolescents will still have the same desires, fantasies and attractions, he writes, but they no longer will need or want to identify themselves as gay.

"The new gay teenager is in many respects the non-gay teenager," says Savin-Williams.

Savin-Williams is an expert on issues concerning gay, lesbian and bisexual youths and is a licensed clinical psychologist who works with gay youths and their families. He also serves on a panel of experts for the Human Rights Campaign on teen issues.

In his book Savin-Williams argues that the majority of young people who engage in gay sex consider themselves heterosexual and that the majority of youths with same-sex attractions do not call themselves gay.

Such labels as "gay" no longer work when describing young people's sexuality, he says, because some teens have same-sex crushes but don't act on them or call them "gay love affairs." Some believe they are gay for a while and then not gay for a while. Still others might consider themselves gay only in certain situations.

"Most same-sex-attracted young people engage in sexual activities with both sexes. Some are homoerotic in some sexual domains and not in others. Similarly, one can be little or greatly same-sex attracted, in varying degrees and in varying ways," says Savin-Williams. In fact, he says, between 15 and 20 percent of adolescents have some degree of same-sex orientation, yet only 3 to 4 percent embrace a gay or bisexual identity or report same-sex activities. Most young people don't link their sexuality to their identity.

Filled with the voices of young people speaking for themselves, New Gay Teenager is easy to read but provides a troubling prospect for the future of the gay rights movement.

©365Gay.com 2005

I was just wondering what some of you guys made of this....

EDIT: An excerpt from the book is available as a PDF file here http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/SAVNEW.html - I'm off to read it now....

11th Sep 2005, 07:53 AM

Hmm... I think when people identify as gay, it often is just as much about identifying themselves as part of a minority group as it is about declaring that they're primarily attracted to men/women. So as long as there are teenagers who feel like their same-sex attractions isolate them in some way from the rest of society, I think there will continue to be "gay adolescents."

drhladnjak · 11th Sep 2005, 10:13 AM

I think it's important to note that he's saying gay adolescents will disappear, not gay people in general. There's nothing really new going on here... Teenagers have always been experimenting with figuring out their same-sex / opposite-sex attractions. Before the 20th century, teens experimented, but didn't identify as gay because back then there wasn't a concept of homosexuality. In more modern times, teens still experimented and increasingly many began to identify as gay once they became adults. Today teens still experiment, but because of changes in the social climate, there's less of a stigma and more support for identifying gay, which I believe has lead more people to come out earlier perhaps before some are 100% understanding of their sexuality.

However, it's important to remember that teens are experimenting and many may be confused about their sexuality. A lot of teens that identify as hetero at that age, may identify as gay later and that's been true for a long time. Now that it's more acceptable for teens to come out though, it's probably become increasingly common for the converse to happen (identify as gay, then as hetero or bi later).

Because of all the confusion and exploration, it seems to me that it would be best if teens (or people in general) didn't have to take on a label right away. If they need a label, perhaps "questioning" or "exploring" would be best. That's exactly what the author of the book is getting at here. Instead of having to pick sides (and have that turn out wrong later), more teens are just staying unlabeled (or labeling themselves hetero, although I suspect this is more out of comfort than anything else) and getting involved with whichever people they fancy at that time.

In the end, I suspect many as they become adults would still eventually identify as gay or bi or even hetero (denial and confusion about their sexuality seem to never get resolved for some people) as their preferences become clear with maturity and experience. Especially when you're an adult, labels are important (although often frustrating and dehumanizing). In my eyes, it's very hard to meet and become involved with other people who are of your desired non-hetero sexuality (gay, lesbian, bi, etc.) unless you take on a label.

Personally, I struggled with finding a label for myself throughout much of my younger years because none seemed to fit ("I couldn't be gay because I wasn't like guys who called themselves gay.", stereotypes and homophobia and all that). Not having that label precluded me from finding and having serious relationships with gay men during that period. That's unfortunate in many ways, but people like labels and they seem to largely be a necessary evil in our society.

As time goes on and these adolescents leave high school to enter college or the non-school world, it becomes increasingly difficult to have "youthful indiscretions" with other people who don't label. That combined with a better understanding of one's desires and preferences acquired by aging will probably not spell the end of the gay adult any time soon.

joeyconnick · 11th Sep 2005, 11:21 PM

I actually used this book as a major source for a paper I wrote for Sociology 100 this summer on queer youth suicide. It is an excellent read. (The book, not the paper. Well actually, the paper got the highest mark in the class, so I guess it's not that bad a read. *grin*)

However, I think Savin-Williams is pretty mistaken in his claims about the end of "gay adolescence." I think it's probably trending that way but it's nowhere near the stage he seems to describe (and I question if we will ever get to the post-gay utopia he imagines). You also get the feeling, reading the book, that a lot of it is wish-fulfilment on his part, that he probably grew up wondering why people made such a big issue about sexual difference when (and I agree with this in the ideal sense) he felt there was no need for people to be stuck into categories like gay and straight.

He seems to ignore the fact that often, what we label ourselves doesn't matter--it's how the rest of society labels us that has a significant impact. So while today's teenagers may not be as eager to adopt a sexual identity label as previously, they are growing up in a world where their gay elders and mainstream elders do definitely see a distinction between "gay" and "straight" (for better and for worse). So the whole extinction of the gay adolescent is not going to come about any sooner than 20 years or so, if you ask me.

And then there's the fact that he really seems to be coming from an urban or very liberal suburban point of view. I know people here on EC and in real life who simply cannot be open about their same-sex experiences and expect it not to be a big deal.

And finally, he doesn't seem to appreciate all the many reasons people take on labels or join communities, which I think is what Motionmaker was getting at. Like most label-rejecters, he seems fixated on how labels are inherently bad because they come with stereotypes, not really getting the fact that labels are actually neutral--it's how we as a society perceive those labels that the harm or the benefits spring. You should define your labels, not let them define you. His argument is, in the extreme, akin to women arguing they don't want to identify as women anymore because society treats women poorly, when we all should be advocating that women be treated equally. (And yes, I can say that because quite apart from the biological differences of sex, gender is very much an identity that we learn, much like apart from the biological differences between the sexual activities of queer and non-queer people, gay, straight, bi, queer, lesbian are identities we take on and communities into which we assimiliate... unless you're an essentialist and then, well, yeah... good luck finding that gay gene thing).

Actually, his viewpoint is very much one that seems to spring from an individualistic perspective, which makes complete sense given he's a psychologist, while my rebuttal follows, I think, a more group-oriented approach that would be more common among sociologists. Or at least that's my story and I'm sticking with it.

I can definitely see the benefit of moving beyond pure identity models of sexuality; I mean, Kinsey himself definitely did more than slot people into gay/straight holes based on their own self-descriptions. I just don't think that wanting to dismantle sexual identities wholesale is that useful a use of our collective time and energy. The label "gay" should be descriptive, not proscriptive, yes. But it sure is a handy label.

Hendrix · 8th Jul 2007, 04:53 PM

I agree with a lot of what was said but before me (but I have to admit a lot of it went over my head, but I generally understand it though).

Quote:

Originally Posted by drhladnjak

Personally, I struggled with finding a label for myself throughout much of my younger years because none seemed to fit ("I couldn't be gay because I wasn't like guys who called themselves gay.", stereotypes and homophobia and all that). Not having that label precluded me from finding and having serious relationships with gay men during that period. That's unfortunate in many ways, but people like labels and they seem to largely be a necessary evil in our society.

I totally agree with the problems that labels are causing, but I figure that they may be inevitable but they could definetely inprove. I also hate the stereotypes go along with being gay (acting feminine, having good fashion sense, wanting to be a woman, transvestites, etc), all the stuff that they put in the media and elsewhere that people just eat up. I don't fit into those stereotype of a gay man at all. I haven't come out to anyone yet but I bet if I told anyone that I was gay they'd be shocked because I don't fit their notion of what being gay is supposed to be. When I hear people talk about these stereotypes as if they're legitamate I just think about how ignorant the world is and how it is all due to these labels we put on ourselves. Not just lables of being gay but other lables that go with gender, age, race, religon, or anything for that matter. "Aren't people who are (blank) supposed to be (blank)?" "No, They don't have to be". I really just wish people could see past labels. It would make it a lot easier for people to see that in a lot of ways that everyone is the same and that our differences don't have to separate us. I hope oneday that sexual orientation will not have a label placed on it but I agree that it is still very far off.

Red87 · 8th Jul 2007, 09:41 PM

Interesting... I was this way though. I was attracted to guys and girls, but I still labeled myself as straight. Never even crossed my mind I was gay. Then as I grew older, I became less attracted to girls and more attracted to guys, and now Its pretty much exclusive attraction to guys.

CrimsonThunder · 9th Jul 2007, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red87

Interesting... I was this way though. I was attracted to guys and girls, but I still labeled myself as straight. Never even crossed my mind I was gay.

Thats the exact same as me! And I was discussing this with someone on MSN today as well, strange!

8th Jul 2007, 09:41 PM	#6
Red87 EC Military Expert! Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: All but family Location: Grafenwöhr, Germany Age: 24 Posts: 343 Join Date: Jun 2007	Re: The "gay adolescent" soon will disappear.... Interesting... I was this way though. I was attracted to guys and girls, but I still labeled myself as straight. Never even crossed my mind I was gay. Then as I grew older, I became less attracted to girls and more attracted to guys, and now Its pretty much exclusive attraction to guys.

11th Sep 2005, 07:53 AM	#2
BaciListClostridium Guest Posts: n/a	Hmm... I think when people identify as gay, it often is just as much about identifying themselves as part of a minority group as it is about declaring that they're primarily attracted to men/women. So as long as there are teenagers who feel like their same-sex attractions isolate them in some way from the rest of society, I think there will continue to be "gay adolescents."

11th Sep 2005, 10:13 AM	#3
drhladnjak Member Regular Member Location: Carrboro, NC Posts: 46 Join Date: Aug 2005	I think it's important to note that he's saying gay adolescents will disappear, not gay people in general. There's nothing really new going on here... Teenagers have always been experimenting with figuring out their same-sex / opposite-sex attractions. Before the 20th century, teens experimented, but didn't identify as gay because back then there wasn't a concept of homosexuality. In more modern times, teens still experimented and increasingly many began to identify as gay once they became adults. Today teens still experiment, but because of changes in the social climate, there's less of a stigma and more support for identifying gay, which I believe has lead more people to come out earlier perhaps before some are 100% understanding of their sexuality. However, it's important to remember that teens are experimenting and many may be confused about their sexuality. A lot of teens that identify as hetero at that age, may identify as gay later and that's been true for a long time. Now that it's more acceptable for teens to come out though, it's probably become increasingly common for the converse to happen (identify as gay, then as hetero or bi later). Because of all the confusion and exploration, it seems to me that it would be best if teens (or people in general) didn't have to take on a label right away. If they need a label, perhaps "questioning" or "exploring" would be best. That's exactly what the author of the book is getting at here. Instead of having to pick sides (and have that turn out wrong later), more teens are just staying unlabeled (or labeling themselves hetero, although I suspect this is more out of comfort than anything else) and getting involved with whichever people they fancy at that time. In the end, I suspect many as they become adults would still eventually identify as gay or bi or even hetero (denial and confusion about their sexuality seem to never get resolved for some people) as their preferences become clear with maturity and experience. Especially when you're an adult, labels are important (although often frustrating and dehumanizing). In my eyes, it's very hard to meet and become involved with other people who are of your desired non-hetero sexuality (gay, lesbian, bi, etc.) unless you take on a label. Personally, I struggled with finding a label for myself throughout much of my younger years because none seemed to fit ("I couldn't be gay because I wasn't like guys who called themselves gay.", stereotypes and homophobia and all that). Not having that label precluded me from finding and having serious relationships with gay men during that period. That's unfortunate in many ways, but people like labels and they seem to largely be a necessary evil in our society. As time goes on and these adolescents leave high school to enter college or the non-school world, it becomes increasingly difficult to have "youthful indiscretions" with other people who don't label. That combined with a better understanding of one's desires and preferences acquired by aging will probably not spell the end of the gay adult any time soon.

11th Sep 2005, 11:21 PM	#4
joeyconnick sine qua non Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Out to everyone Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 3,332 Join Date: Apr 2005	I actually used this book as a major source for a paper I wrote for Sociology 100 this summer on queer youth suicide. It is an excellent read. (The book, not the paper. Well actually, the paper got the highest mark in the class, so I guess it's not that bad a read. grin) However, I think Savin-Williams is pretty mistaken in his claims about the end of "gay adolescence." I think it's probably trending that way but it's nowhere near the stage he seems to describe (and I question if we will ever get to the post-gay utopia he imagines). You also get the feeling, reading the book, that a lot of it is wish-fulfilment on his part, that he probably grew up wondering why people made such a big issue about sexual difference when (and I agree with this in the ideal sense) he felt there was no need for people to be stuck into categories like gay and straight. He seems to ignore the fact that often, what we label ourselves doesn't matter--it's how the rest of society labels us that has a significant impact. So while today's teenagers may not be as eager to adopt a sexual identity label as previously, they are growing up in a world where their gay elders and mainstream elders do definitely see a distinction between "gay" and "straight" (for better and for worse). So the whole extinction of the gay adolescent is not going to come about any sooner than 20 years or so, if you ask me. And then there's the fact that he really seems to be coming from an urban or very liberal suburban point of view. I know people here on EC and in real life who simply cannot be open about their same-sex experiences and expect it not to be a big deal. And finally, he doesn't seem to appreciate all the many reasons people take on labels or join communities, which I think is what Motionmaker was getting at. Like most label-rejecters, he seems fixated on how labels are inherently bad because they come with stereotypes, not really getting the fact that labels are actually neutral--it's how we as a society perceive those labels that the harm or the benefits spring. You should define your labels, not let them define you. His argument is, in the extreme, akin to women arguing they don't want to identify as women anymore because society treats women poorly, when we all should be advocating that women be treated equally. (And yes, I can say that because quite apart from the biological differences of sex, gender is very much an identity that we learn, much like apart from the biological differences between the sexual activities of queer and non-queer people, gay, straight, bi, queer, lesbian are identities we take on and communities into which we assimiliate... unless you're an essentialist and then, well, yeah... good luck finding that gay gene thing). Actually, his viewpoint is very much one that seems to spring from an individualistic perspective, which makes complete sense given he's a psychologist, while my rebuttal follows, I think, a more group-oriented approach that would be more common among sociologists. Or at least that's my story and I'm sticking with it. I can definitely see the benefit of moving beyond pure identity models of sexuality; I mean, Kinsey himself definitely did more than slot people into gay/straight holes based on their own self-descriptions. I just don't think that wanting to dismantle sexual identities wholesale is that useful a use of our collective time and energy. The label "gay" should be descriptive, not proscriptive, yes. But it sure is a handy label.