Do You Believe In Fate? - Empty Closets - A safe online community for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered people coming out

RaeMoral · 25th Mar 2010, 07:09 AM

I was just wondering if you all, believed in fate? - I personally do. Although the thought of everything be pre-planned kind of creeps me out.

Black Cat · 25th Mar 2010, 07:11 AM

Sort of. I think we all have something in the cards for us, but if we try hard enough and believe then we can make whatever we want out of our lives.

Just Adam · 25th Mar 2010, 07:17 AM

i believe theres a universal fate for all things, a pattern things follow, the world, the human race, but i also believe we can have a destiny and we can master our own,

**TheEdend** · 25th Mar 2010, 07:22 AM

I don't really believe in fate. The idea of the out come being the same no matter the choice you make kind of creeps me out. It is a nice concept though, but I personally think that every decision you make changes the out come and that nothing is for certain.

MusicIsLife · 25th Mar 2010, 07:26 AM

i believe more in destiny than fate.

Zumbro · 25th Mar 2010, 09:11 AM

Not so much. I'm more of a chaos theory person myself. Things happen, and no matter what you do you never really know the outcome, so just go with the flow and see what happens.

SaturdaySaviour · 25th Mar 2010, 01:47 PM

No. I refuse to believe that my life is predetermined.

RaeofLite · 25th Mar 2010, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaturdaySaviour

No. I refuse to believe that my life is predetermined.

I agree with this. You take things as they come, and roll with them. Some events or occurances may be bad, but what'll make you or break you in life is how you deal with them. If you have positive friends on your side then that can make a world of difference.

Idunnohereitis · 25th Mar 2010, 01:53 PM

I dont know..not really sure. But there are some things that happen that make me thing.. "it mustve HAD to happen" like when you hear about somebody dying in such a strange way, i cant help but to think that it was suppposed to be that way if so many odds were challenged..... Fate is bitter. I believe that. But i think there are things that will happen regardless and ppl fall into place and can change with every choice they make. i dont believe everythings written from day 1.

fragomatrick · 25th Mar 2010, 02:00 PM

I believe in karma! what goes around comes around!

25th Mar 2010, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahulxxx

I believe in karma! what goes around comes around!

yep. i believe that too. fate is kinda the same thing. hopefully mine includes someone else tho.

25th Mar 2010, 10:21 PM

canadian bear · 25th Mar 2010, 10:27 PM

i feel we make are own fate may it be for the good or the bad

Nitro · 25th Mar 2010, 10:49 PM

I find no compelling reason to believe in fate. As for the idea of what goes around comes around, the term "slave morality" comes to mind.

**Owen** · 26th Mar 2010, 03:47 AM

According to my roommate (whom I trust to give me accurate information), neuroscience has shown that, since all of our actions are the results of chemical impulses within our brain, our actions can be mapped out, and thus fate exists. I have issues with this theory, though. What if something unexpected come along, like an accident or a natural disaster? How can this theory be used to determine our fate when we can't see the future and know which situations we'll need to react to? That doesn't really address the question of whether a more theological kind of fate exists, but I don't give those kinds of ideas any credit anyways; to me, they're just comforting illusions for people who can't look at a random universe and accept it for what it is.

Still, even if theological fate existed, what good would it do us to believe in it? If we simply resign ourselves to believe that all of the consequences of our actions are predetermined, what reason is there to act? If some of our efforts are doomed to fail from the beginning, why put forth any effort at all? If our other efforts are guaranteed to succeed, why work to get there? You may address that last question by saying we need to work to manifest our fate, but right there you acknowledge free will, since the individual has the choice of whether or not he wants to work to manifest his fate. Even if there is fate, we need to live as if we have free will if we want to manifest that fate. For that reason, I don't believe in fate.

As for karma, I don't give that idea any credit either. Sure, it has its practical basis: if you hurt someone, they'll want to hurt you back, and if they don't end up hurting you, maybe their descendants will. But as for a divine karma, the idea that everything that goes around comes around, I also see that as an illusion, one that keeps people in line even when they see others acting unethically and succeeding more than they do. Religious ideas were all designed for practical reasons, and when you can trace them back to the events that likely created them, it's hard to give them any credence at all.

adam88 · 26th Mar 2010, 06:06 AM

Yes. But I also do Tarot readings, so I know better than most that fate is fluid and can be changed by will.

Ander Blue · 26th Mar 2010, 06:48 AM

heha, we just went over this in my philosophy course.
Arguments for the existence of fate:
1) as Gamer am I hit on, there's the idea everything in the world, even human action, can be explained in terms of a cause and effect. The cause and affect are governed by certain natural laws. Now, imagine being able to take everything into account at a specific point in time, every single initial condition. Also, taking all laws into effect, it's understandable that everything follows - the idea of one huge causal chain (no splits or breaks in the chain either.)
2)Aristotle came up with a problem. Imagine two opposite future statements. (ei. you will go to the park today at noon, you will not go to the park today at noon). Only one is true. and according to logical law, what is true is true at any point in time. Now, imagine making an infinite number of these statements, and then you bunch up all the true ones into a bundle. Isn't that true one basically a definition of the universe, the way it was, is and shall be?

Arguments against:
1) let's talk mental substance. Assuming that mental substance exists and it has the ability to interact with physical substance - our whole causal chain theory sorta goes bonkers. It's assumed that mental substance don't really follow 'laws' so there isn't really a clear cut way to take into account what they will in fact do.
2) The teleological argument says that humans cannot be explained by a normal causal chain. If you were to explain to someone why you drank a glass of water, you'd say you were thirsty. What you mean by this is that you felt thirsty, and you didn't want to feel thirsty so you took a drink in the hopes that your thirst would be quenched. Teleology suggests that what explains human action and behavior is desire, goals, purpose. We do things in order to try and bring something else about in the future. This as well doesn't fit the single large causal chain argument.
3) finally, in regards to Aristotle's argument, one can say that the future is defined by our action. Sure it may be true that there is only one set of the truths as to how the universe is, but is our actions and behaviors which discerns which of those truths are real.

Personally, I'm a free-willist and don't believe in fate

padre411 · 26th Mar 2010, 07:00 AM

Hey - I know I keep beating this drum but here is how St Augustine worked this out in the 4th century:

Time is one of God's "creatures," an element of creation and existence. Eternity is not time going on forever. Eternity is the end of time itself and the end of existence. This is how I imagine the "big rip" that astronomers speak of.

When we speak of God as omniscient and omnipotent, we are speaking of God outside of time, outside of existence. From there, God can see the whole.

Within time, however, free will gets to run its course. Augustine understands evil as resulting from the will moving away from God. This can happen with spiritual beings (angels), human beings, perhaps even other elements of the natural order. For Augustine, ultimate evil, or hell, is the ultimate moving away from God. Since God is the source of being and existence, to be ultimately away from God is to cease existing.

Peace,

**Lexington** · 26th Mar 2010, 07:38 AM

Not in the slightest. I'm with my guy because we happened to play the same online video game at the same odd hour (3am). Had I not done that, I wouldn't be with him. Maybe my life would be worse, maybe it would be better. But I can say I'm extremely happy with the way it's gone.

Lex

dukeguy06 · 26th Mar 2010, 08:59 AM

I believe in destiny. Not fate.

25th Mar 2010, 07:09 AM	#1
RaeMoral Newbie Regular Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Out to everyone Location: Portland Posts: 5 Join Date: Mar 2010	Do You Believe In Fate? I was just wondering if you all, believed in fate? - I personally do. Although the thought of everything be pre-planned kind of creeps me out. __________________ "What is straight? A line can be straight, or a street, but the human heart, oh no, it's curved like a road through mountains." -Tennessee Williams

25th Mar 2010, 07:11 AM	#2
Black Cat As Seen On Hoarders... Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: This cat is out of the bag - I mean closet Location: Pennsylvania, with the cows Age: 21 Posts: 2,391 Join Date: Jun 2009	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? Sort of. I think we all have something in the cards for us, but if we try hard enough and believe then we can make whatever we want out of our lives. __________________ "Your life is an occasion. Rise to it." - Mr. Magorium

25th Mar 2010, 07:17 AM	#3
Just Adam Just passing through Full Member Gender: Something Orientation: Dunno Out Status: If they ask i will tell them Location: Wherever Age: 23 Posts: 6,002 Join Date: Mar 2009	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? i believe theres a universal fate for all things, a pattern things follow, the world, the human race, but i also believe we can have a destiny and we can master our own, __________________ There Used To Be A Point Of Things.

25th Mar 2010, 07:22 AM	#4
TheEdend Hope will never be silent EC Moderator Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Extended family still doesn't know Location: Orlando, Florida Age: 21 Posts: 2,831 Join Date: Mar 2010	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? I don't really believe in fate. The idea of the out come being the same no matter the choice you make kind of creeps me out. It is a nice concept though, but I personally think that every decision you make changes the out come and that nothing is for certain. __________________ “You may never know what results come of your action, but if you do nothing there will be no result” -Gandhi

25th Mar 2010, 07:26 AM	#5
MusicIsLife EC Addict Full Member Gender: Not even sure anymore. Something in between. Orientation: I like girls :) Out Status: Everyone on orientation 7 people on trans issue. Location: Montréal, QC Age: 23 Posts: 1,595 Join Date: Dec 2007	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? i believe more in destiny than fate.

25th Mar 2010, 09:11 AM	#6
Zumbro EC Addict Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: 5/6 on the Kinsey scale. Out Status: Out to everyone Location: Troy, NY Age: 22 Posts: 434 Join Date: Jan 2010	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? Not so much. I'm more of a chaos theory person myself. Things happen, and no matter what you do you never really know the outcome, so just go with the flow and see what happens. __________________ If you want to love the world again, you can't just sit back and wait for it. You have to go chase it, and it will be entirely worth it when you catch up.

25th Mar 2010, 01:47 PM	#7
SaturdaySaviour eats crayons and shits rainbows. Full Member Gender: Female Orientation: Lesbian Out Status: Friends! Location: Croatia Age: 18 Posts: 490 Join Date: Dec 2009	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? No. I refuse to believe that my life is predetermined.

25th Mar 2010, 01:53 PM	#9
Idunnohereitis Thankyoumayihaveanother!g ah Full Member Gender: Female Orientation: Not into guys, dont hate, cant help it :] Out Status: some people. and im workin with it Location: Great Lakes region Age: 19 Posts: 295 Join Date: Oct 2009	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? I dont know..not really sure. But there are some things that happen that make me thing.. "it mustve HAD to happen" like when you hear about somebody dying in such a strange way, i cant help but to think that it was suppposed to be that way if so many odds were challenged..... Fate is bitter. I believe that. But i think there are things that will happen regardless and ppl fall into place and can change with every choice they make. i dont believe everythings written from day 1. __________________ "life is what happens when you are busy making other plans"

25th Mar 2010, 02:00 PM	#10
fragomatrick Perpetually Bored! Regular Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Some people Age: 21 Posts: 732 Join Date: Jan 2010	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? I believe in karma! what goes around comes around! __________________ The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on. - Robert Bloch

25th Mar 2010, 10:21 PM	#12
dude99 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? nope

25th Mar 2010, 10:27 PM	#13
canadian bear EC Addict Regular Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Some people Location: dartmouth nova scotia Age: 40 Posts: 364 Join Date: Mar 2010	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? i feel we make are own fate may it be for the good or the bad

25th Mar 2010, 10:49 PM	#14
Nitro Side effects may include AAAAAAAAA! Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay but curious Out Status: A few people Location: Canada Age: 23 Posts: 935 Join Date: Feb 2008	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? I find no compelling reason to believe in fate. As for the idea of what goes around comes around, the term "slave morality" comes to mind. __________________ Voici mon secret. Il est très simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux. Le renard - Le Petit Prince

26th Mar 2010, 03:47 AM	#15
Owen Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult EC Admin Gender: Agendered dude Orientation: Panromantic androsexual Out Status: Everyone and their mother Location: Massachusetts, USA Age: 21 Posts: 2,871 Join Date: Jul 2007	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? According to my roommate (whom I trust to give me accurate information), neuroscience has shown that, since all of our actions are the results of chemical impulses within our brain, our actions can be mapped out, and thus fate exists. I have issues with this theory, though. What if something unexpected come along, like an accident or a natural disaster? How can this theory be used to determine our fate when we can't see the future and know which situations we'll need to react to? That doesn't really address the question of whether a more theological kind of fate exists, but I don't give those kinds of ideas any credit anyways; to me, they're just comforting illusions for people who can't look at a random universe and accept it for what it is. Still, even if theological fate existed, what good would it do us to believe in it? If we simply resign ourselves to believe that all of the consequences of our actions are predetermined, what reason is there to act? If some of our efforts are doomed to fail from the beginning, why put forth any effort at all? If our other efforts are guaranteed to succeed, why work to get there? You may address that last question by saying we need to work to manifest our fate, but right there you acknowledge free will, since the individual has the choice of whether or not he wants to work to manifest his fate. Even if there is fate, we need to live as if we have free will if we want to manifest that fate. For that reason, I don't believe in fate. As for karma, I don't give that idea any credit either. Sure, it has its practical basis: if you hurt someone, they'll want to hurt you back, and if they don't end up hurting you, maybe their descendants will. But as for a divine karma, the idea that everything that goes around comes around, I also see that as an illusion, one that keeps people in line even when they see others acting unethically and succeeding more than they do. Religious ideas were all designed for practical reasons, and when you can trace them back to the events that likely created them, it's hard to give them any credence at all. __________________ "Stand firm for what you believe in, until and unless logic and experience prove you wrong. Remember, when the emperor looks naked, the emperor is naked. The truth and a lie are not sort of the same thing. And there is no aspect, no facet, no moment of life that can't be improved with pizza." -Daria Morgendorffer

26th Mar 2010, 06:06 AM	#16
adam88 EC Addict Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Pansexual. Or bi. Same thing. Out Status: Yes. Location: Toronto, Canada Age: 30 Posts: 797 Join Date: Nov 2009	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? Yes. But I also do Tarot readings, so I know better than most that fate is fluid and can be changed by will. __________________ --Brendan A coming out is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is it early. You come out precisely when you mean to. -not Gandalf

26th Mar 2010, 06:48 AM	#17
Ander Blue feeling comfy Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Out to everyone Location: Copenhagen, Denmark (normally Troy, New York) Age: 22 Posts: 428 Join Date: Nov 2009	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? heha, we just went over this in my philosophy course. Arguments for the existence of fate: 1) as Gamer am I hit on, there's the idea everything in the world, even human action, can be explained in terms of a cause and effect. The cause and affect are governed by certain natural laws. Now, imagine being able to take everything into account at a specific point in time, every single initial condition. Also, taking all laws into effect, it's understandable that everything follows - the idea of one huge causal chain (no splits or breaks in the chain either.) 2)Aristotle came up with a problem. Imagine two opposite future statements. (ei. you will go to the park today at noon, you will not go to the park today at noon). Only one is true. and according to logical law, what is true is true at any point in time. Now, imagine making an infinite number of these statements, and then you bunch up all the true ones into a bundle. Isn't that true one basically a definition of the universe, the way it was, is and shall be? Arguments against: 1) let's talk mental substance. Assuming that mental substance exists and it has the ability to interact with physical substance - our whole causal chain theory sorta goes bonkers. It's assumed that mental substance don't really follow 'laws' so there isn't really a clear cut way to take into account what they will in fact do. 2) The teleological argument says that humans cannot be explained by a normal causal chain. If you were to explain to someone why you drank a glass of water, you'd say you were thirsty. What you mean by this is that you felt thirsty, and you didn't want to feel thirsty so you took a drink in the hopes that your thirst would be quenched. Teleology suggests that what explains human action and behavior is desire, goals, purpose. We do things in order to try and bring something else about in the future. This as well doesn't fit the single large causal chain argument. 3) finally, in regards to Aristotle's argument, one can say that the future is defined by our action. Sure it may be true that there is only one set of the truths as to how the universe is, but is our actions and behaviors which discerns which of those truths are real. Personally, I'm a free-willist and don't believe in fate __________________ Re-examine all you have been told.... Dismiss what insults your soul. ~ Walt Whitman

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26th Mar 2010, 07:00 AM	#18
padre411 El Padre Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay (Kinsey 5.5) Out Status: Out to everyone Location: Southwestern US Age: 49 Posts: 416 Join Date: Jan 2010	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? Hey - I know I keep beating this drum but here is how St Augustine worked this out in the 4th century: Time is one of God's "creatures," an element of creation and existence. Eternity is not time going on forever. Eternity is the end of time itself and the end of existence. This is how I imagine the "big rip" that astronomers speak of. When we speak of God as omniscient and omnipotent, we are speaking of God outside of time, outside of existence. From there, God can see the whole. Within time, however, free will gets to run its course. Augustine understands evil as resulting from the will moving away from God. This can happen with spiritual beings (angels), human beings, perhaps even other elements of the natural order. For Augustine, ultimate evil, or hell, is the ultimate moving away from God. Since God is the source of being and existence, to be ultimately away from God is to cease existing. Peace, __________________ Mike "The danger is not that there is no bread. The danger is that we believe we are not hungry because of a lie" - Simone Weil There is always a graceful path forward.

26th Mar 2010, 07:38 AM	#19
Lexington The gay gargoyle EC Advisor Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Out to everyone Location: Colorado Age: 42 Posts: 12,371 Join Date: Dec 2007	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? Not in the slightest. I'm with my guy because we happened to play the same online video game at the same odd hour (3am). Had I not done that, I wouldn't be with him. Maybe my life would be worse, maybe it would be better. But I can say I'm extremely happy with the way it's gone. Lex

26th Mar 2010, 08:59 AM	#20
dukeguy06 Member Regular Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Out to my Parents Location: greensboro, nc Age: 23 Posts: 28 Join Date: Mar 2010	Re: Do You Believe In Fate? I believe in destiny. Not fate.