Pedophilia.

[jrnewton2]

It's a really interesting topic. I think a lot of times we just write off the concept as evil, and I think we do so wrongly and to our own detriment as a society.

First off, I wanna draw a line to be clear. Not all people who molest children are pedophiles, and not all pedophiles molest children. When I say "pedophiles," I am referring to people whose primary sexual interest is in pre-pubescent children, but who have never been involved with one romantically.

Of all people, the queer community should understand that sexuality is not a decision. Why, then, do we ostracize and socially crucify those whose biology attracts them to children? All I'm saying is that if we could learn to accept pedophilia as a disease, then perhaps we could learn to do something about it. We need to create a social atmosphere in which these people, and others with dangerous disorders such as schizophrenia and ASPD, can feel as comfortable coming forward for treatment as someone with cancer or diabetes. Instead, we wait until these people hurt someone, then we finally start to give a damn about them.

[haelmarie]

Originally Posted by jrnewton2

those whose biology attracts them to children?

That's news to me.

[Moonstrike]

I agree that paedophiles have been demonised beyond what they deserve. I have held this view for some time.

[jrnewton2]

Originally Posted by haelmarie

That's news to me.

Glad to enlighten you then.

"According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), pedophilia is a paraphilia in which a person has intense and recurrent sexual urges towards and fantasies about prepubescent children and on which feelings they have either acted or which cause distress or interpersonal difficulty."

From Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophi...te_note-dsm4-0

[maverick]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - there is absolutely no correlation between pedophilia and being gay. That is why this topic is not really appropriate for Empty Closets (in my opinion).

Queers already have to battle the misconception that being gay is linked to secretly wanting to molest little kids, there is no point in shooting ourselves in the foot trying to "accept" pedophiles. It only adds fuel to the fires of people who would already associate us with that behavior which is not only illegal, but in practice is an extreme violation of another person's sexuality, and can cause lifelong trauma to the victim.

Of all people, the queer community should understand that sexuality is not a decision. Why, then, do we ostracize and socially crucify those whose biology attracts them to children? All I'm saying is that if we could learn to accept pedophilia as a disease, then perhaps we could learn to do something about it. We need to create a social atmosphere in which these people, and others with dangerous disorders such as schizophrenia and ASPD, can feel as comfortable coming forward for treatment as someone with cancer or diabetes. Instead, we wait until these people hurt someone, then we finally start to give a damn about them.

^ That might be so, but this is a social space for the LGBTQ community. If there is a need for pedophiles to have a social forum to seek counselling from their peers, they're free to start one of their own.

But we as gay people are not their peers, and never will be. It is a completely unrelated issue.

[Moonstrike]

Originally Posted by maverick

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - there is absolutely no correlation between pedophilia and being gay. That is why this topic is not really appropriate for Empty Closets (in my opinion).

As far as I can see, this forum is not exclusively for talking about LGBT issues. We discuss a lot of things here.

Originally Posted by maverick

^ That might be so, but this is a social atmosphere for the LGBTQ community. If there is a need for pedophiles to have a social forum, they're free to start one of their own.

Paedophiles should be welcome in this forum and they should not have to hide their sexuality (they should NOT act on it but they shouldnt have to hide it). They should be allowed to have support if they feel they need it. Them being open about it means that we, as a society, can effectively stop it from happening.

Also, paedophiles CAN be gay.

Also, this forum doesnt exclude straight people.

[Ghostly]

I think it is absolutley wrong because unlike being gay it has nothing to do with love and only with sexual attractions >:! If some is affected by thoughts like these I suggest they talk to a psychiatrist or someone who can help them because if anything, it is only going to destroy someone's life. I do not think it should be something people should accept and be totally okay with becuase it is beyond morally wrong to do that to a child. And I have known alot of people such as family members who have been victim to child molestation and I would not wish it on anyone, but if a person is willing to get help for this, then they should not be punished for it( that's only if they haven't done anything) since they know that it is wrong and would never commit an act related to the attractions.

[jrnewton2]

Originally Posted by maverick

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - there is absolutely no correlation between pedophilia and being gay. That is why this topic is not really appropriate for Empty Closets (in my opinion).

Queers already have to battle the misconception that being gay is linked to secretly wanting to molest little kids, there is no point in shooting ourselves in the foot trying to "accept" pedophiles. It only adds fuel to the fires of people who would already associate us with that behavior which is not only illegal, but in practice is an extreme violation of another person's sexuality, and can cause lifelong trauma to the victim.

That might be so, but this is a social atmosphere for the LGBTQ community. If there is a need for pedophiles to have a social forum to seek counselling from their peers, they're free to start one of their own.

But we as gay people are not their peers, and never will be. It is a completely unrelated issue.

First of all, I think it fits under the umbrella of "general discussion of topics of interest to LGBT people of all ages. (Case in point, it's of interest to me...)

Second, I personally think we should be willing to "shoot ourself in the foot" in the quest to accept anyone for the way they are born, regardless of how inconvenient their nature may be to our cause. These are, after all, still humans we're talking about.

[maverick]

As far as I can see, this forum is not exclusively for talking about LGBT issues. We discuss a lot of things here.

It's not, but as far as I can tell, the boards don't really allow for a "pro" stance on any topic which is ethically controversial or potentially damaging, such as pro-anorexia, pro-suicide, etc....

Paedophiles should be welcome in this forum and they should not have to hide their sexuality (they should NOT act on it but they shouldnt have to hide it). They should be allowed to have support if they feel they need it.

Also, paedophiles CAN be gay.

Also, this forum doesnt exclude straight people.

Pedophiles are free to express themselves, but I don't think gay people should feel obligated to accept pedophilia simply because "we should understand what it's like to not be able to control your sexuality". Our sexuality doesn't involve rape in practice. Pedophilia in practice is child molestation. There is really not much of an argument against that.

And pedophiles CAN be gay, but most are not.

This isn't about exclusion, it's about what the gay community should and should not be associated with. I don't know about you, but when people think of me as being gay, I don't want them to associate me with pedophiles and child molesters. There are enough of them who do already.

Second, I personally think we should be willing to "shoot ourself in the foot" in the quest to accept anyone for the way they are born, regardless of how inconvenient their nature may be to our cause. These are, after all, still humans we're talking about.

I don't know a pedophile in real life who was not themselves molested as a child, so without some concrete evidence I have a really hard time buying little kids as a birth-given sexual orientation...

[jrnewton2]

Also, no one is advocating child molestation here. I thought I made that abundantly clear in the OP...

[Moonstrike]

Originally Posted by maverick

Pedophiles are free to express themselves, but I don't think gay people should feel obligated to accept pedophilia simply because "we should understand what it's like to not be able to control your sexuality". Our sexuality doesn't involve rape in practice. Pedophilia in practice is child molestation. There is really not much of an argument against that.

And pedophiles CAN be gay, but most are not.

This isn't about exclusion, it's about what the gay community should and should not be associated with. I don't know about you, but when people think of me as being gay, I don't want them to associate me with pedophiles and child molesters. There are enough of them who do already.

I do not condemn people for being paedophiles any more than I condemn people for being straight or gay.

NO ONE is arguing that they should be allowed to rape children.

[maverick]

Also, no one is advocating child molestation here. I thought I made that abundantly clear in the OP...

So...you're advocating thinking about molesting little kids? I'm not sure what it is you're advocating, other than to treat pedophiles like people, which we as a society do because they're essentially invisible...until they molest little kids.

If my neighbor is a pedophile and keeps it to himself, I personally couldn't care less. Whatever you do in your head is your own business, and your sexual fantasies are your own, no matter how depraved I personally might find them.

If he admitted to being a pedophile (but told me that he had no plans to act on his urges) do you think I'd let him hang out with my kids?

Hells to the no. Sorry Charlie. Humans are sexual beings (for the most part) and you can't reasonably expect someone who is sexually stimulated by little kids to not act on that urge at some point in their lives without some kind of intervention, either intensive therapy or chemical castration.

[Moonstrike]

Originally Posted by maverick

So...you're advocating thinking about molesting little kids? I'm not sure what it is you're advocating, other than to treat pedophiles like people, which we do...until they molest little kids.

You are saying that paedophiles who do not rape (or do whatever to) children are accepted in society? Because they're not.

If your neighbour admitted being a peado, he'd be run out of town.

[jrnewton2]

Originally Posted by maverick

So...you're advocating thinking about molesting little kids? I'm not sure what it is you're advocating, other than to treat pedophiles like people, which we do...until they molest little kids.

Right, because in our society if someone comes out and says "Hey, I really like little kids," everyone totally accepts that and tries to help that person get better. And nothing negative happens at all.

^That would be what I'm advocating, by the way.

I am all for rehabilitation for pedophiles. I believe that is something you can manage. But they deserve jail time as well because they're breaking multiple laws such as rape. Rape isn't cool.

[maverick]

Originally Posted by jrnewton2

Right, because in our society if someone comes out and says "Hey, I really like little kids," everyone totally accepts that and tries to help that person get better. And nothing negative happens at all.

^That would be what I'm advocating, by the way.

Okay, well let me hit it from this angle - if pedophilia is innate from birth (as you've stated) how exactly does one help a pedophile "get better"?

I do agree with you that people should be able to seek help for that sort of thing, just the same as with any other mental illness. But you could never convince me to accept that orientation as socially acceptable. (Well, never say never, but I'm about 99.9% convinced you could not convince me of this.)

And in my opinion, support of pedophilia has no place in the gay rights movement. At all. But as Stephen King likes to say, that's our opinion, we welcome yours. (And by no means do I speak for anyone but myself. This is just my personal position.)

You are saying that paedophiles who do not rape (or do whatever to) children are accepted in society? Because they're not.

If your neighbour admitted being a peado, he'd be run out of town.

You shouldn't "come out" as a pedophile to your neighbors as a general rule. Like other mental illnesses, you should probably just see a therapist if you recognize you harbor strong and incessant pedophilic urges.

I think pedophilia should be treated the same as any other mental illness, like schizophrenia - we feel bad for you, and we'll help you lead as normal of a life as we can, but we as a society cannot have people running around taking orders from their pet dog or molesting little kids. It's just not compatible with a peaceful community.

[Chip]

First, it is far from accepted that pedophilia is biological. It is one view that some social scientists have taken but there are other, opposing views.

Second, let's exchange "pedophile" with "psychopath with violent tendencies" While we can acknowledge that psychopaths need help (as I would also advocate for pedophiles), we would not advocate that people at high risk of harming others in our society be accepted and welcomed into society; we would want to ensure that they are safe and that others are safe from the potential harm they could cause.

As a society, that is what we have advocated in any situation where an individual is a threat to himself or to others, and pedophilia is no different. Now, of course, it's quite possible that people can have a sexual attraction to children and never act on it. But the problem is, many of them, particularly when they start meeting up with and talking to other pedophiles, start rationalizing and justifying their behaviors, that somehow they can "love" children and have sexual relationships with children that are not harmful to the children. And, of course, that is complete bullshit and is well documented.

Because few pedophiles will admit, even to themselves, that they are pedophiles, it becomes impossible to do any sort of meaningful research to have any idea what percentage of the population have pedophilia, and of those, what percentage never act on it. And for those reasons, it makes sense to tread very, very carefully when we start talking about rights for pedophiles, because the rights of children to grow up free of harm and discomfort is, at least in my book, more important than the right of someone else to have unfettered access to children when the temptation and risk of harming them may be high.

[Elven]

I think that pedophilia is not in the same social stance, and so though they should have some support site of their own, I don't believe it should be grouped with LGBT. We are currently attempting to gain the same rights and freedoms enjoyed by Heterosexual people who are confident about their gender. Our relationships and changes in gender cause no harm to anyone else and we can contribute just as much to society. We are fighting to express ourselves.

Pedophiles however when expressing their desires can cause great distress and suffering to children and families, having a very negative effect on society. Therefore the outlook would be for them to either suppress these feelings or find another outlet so as to not cause harm. Though the attraction may also be sexual, the responce could hardly be more different.

[midwestblues]

Pedophilia is not acceptable. If you don't want to take my word for it, you can take the word of the victims of child sexual abuse I've sat across from as they shared their stories. Pedophilic urges are just like matricidal urges; there is no humanly acceptable way to act upon them. I'm not saying people with pedophilic urges are bad people. I'm saying that people who act upon pedophilic urges are bad people. Groups like NAMBLA are bad people. As a homosexual, I don't feel any obligation to stick up for pedophiles. If a pedophile has the sense to know that his urges aren't compatible with reality, there are professional resources available for him to seek help.

[maverick]

And for those reasons, it makes sense to tread very, very carefully when we start talking about rights for pedophiles, because the rights of children to grow up free of harm and discomfort is, at least in my book, more important than the right of someone else to have unfettered access to children when the temptation and risk of harming them may be high.

^ Really can't say it better than this.

I'm not saying people with pedophilic urges are bad people. I'm saying that people who act upon pedophilic urges are bad people. Groups like NAMBLA are bad people. As a homosexual, I don't feel any obligation to stick up for pedophiles.

^ Or this.