double standard men vs women homosexuality?

I'm generally of the opinion that it is largely because "masculine" characteristics - aggression, stoicism, and the like, are held more favorably by what-we'd-call-Western society at large than are feminine characteristics.

It's "okay" for girls to play sports and wear pants, because that's a step up on the societal ladder. Of course they'd want to do those things, boy things are better things! It's an upward move for them, generally speaking. But for a boy to wear a dress, or cry and talk about his feelings, is seen as degrading. Girls acting more "masculine" does not threaten masculinity nearly so much as boys acting "feminine".

I saw this video on exactly that sort of thing, without much mention of the homosexuality aspect of it, and I thought it was interesting:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td1PbsV6B80[/YOUTUBE]

And the people who have "no problem" with female homosexuality but have a problem with male homosexuality... Are pretty much men. Straight men. The women I've seen who have an issue with homosexuality have issue with all homosexuality, not just dude-on-dude. They may even feel more afraid of lesbians, because, you know, we're all sexual predators who just can't wait to molest straight women. (And there are some men who'd condemn female homosexuality just as much as male homosexuality, but that's neither here nor there.)

So it's a segment of the male, heterosexual population who feels that way. And you'll notice it's always, always, hot feminine lesbian pairs they like. Not just that, hot, feminine, exhibitionist lesbian couples. Y'know, the ones who'll make out in public so I can watch. It's never going to be a butch couple, or an older couple, or the couple with hairy legs who spends their weekend at the folk rock festival with their two german shepherds and a vegan picnic basket. It's gonna be the ones who make good fantasy fuel that they're actually going to like.

Moreover, female homosexuality falls into the same behavior range that this subgroup of male heterosexuals at least finds not threatening. A butch-butch female couple may not be fantasy fodder, and may elicit an, "Ugh, gross," reaction, but they do not trip the "MY MASCULINITY IS THREATENED" alarm the same way that male homosexuality does. And it's because of how narrowly masculinity has been defined.

The idea of what it means to be a woman has been expanded vastly, largely in part due to the fact that traditional feminine roles put us at a great disadvantage. Being utterly reliant on men to do everything made us have to push back those definitions, if nothing else so we could look after ourselves in WWII and beyond. But the idea of what it means to be a man hasn't had to face that same crisis, to that same degree. "Men", as a group, haven't had to fight to enter an arena of power, like women and nonwhites had to. They've been pretty okay where they are for a long time. So what we think of as "being a man" isn't that different compared to the past, compared to the paradigm shift experienced by women. I mean, for Christ's sake, we live in a world where a man can be criticized for missing a game to actually see the birth of his child. The "man box" Tony Porter talked about is incredibly confining.

I really wish that "masculine" and "feminine" behaviors were seen as equally valid all across society. A little boy should be able to play dressup with his Barbies without being seen as THE DOWNFALL OF SOCIETY, just like a little girl should get to play with her plastic dump truck out in the mud. A man should be able to stay home with his kids while his wife works without being seen as emasculated. I feel like men have a fight ahead of them, to change perceptions of what exactly it means to be a man. =/

 

It's tough to make blanket statements. In some ways, yes, lesbians seem to have more acceptance. But then again, they seem to be accepted only in very specific ways. The straight-porn fantasy doesn't involve lesbians so much as two very attractive bisexual-but-mainly-straight women who are mainly just keeping their motors warm until the guy shows up. Your standard issue lesbian has no place in such a fantasy.

The main thing that seems to help the most is attitude. Not just in this realm but every realm. I don't have too many feminine characteristics, but I don't hide them. And I have other aspects of my personality that are somewhat off from the norm. But I found that if I OWN them - if I operate as if saying "This is who I am, this is what I like, and so this is what I'm going to do" - then people are far more likely to take it in stride. And, in fact, people start to look at these "quirks" as somewhat cool. Maybe not something they would do, necessarily. But the fact that I simply do what I like is appealing to them, and they pick up on that.

Lex

 

Sorry, I had trouble parsing that paragraph and I'm frankly a little confused as to whether or not you're actually disagreeing with points I made.

I was using very, very broad terms. "Traditional caucasian male" isn't an identity most men use. It gets a lot of negative stuff thrown at it and pinned to it, and when most dudes hear feminists railing about sexism and oppression, who wouldn't want to separate themselves from it? I cringe when I hear about institutionalized racism, and all I want to do is throw up my hands and say, "But I'M not a racist!" (And, while I may not be contributing to the problem, I rarely have to worry about being discriminated against because I'm white, so it's really hard for me to judge how much racism actually affects other people.)

(Unrelated Side Note! That said, I feel like the denial of cultural/gender signifiers as an identity is sort of a privilege all its own. There are those individuals who see themselves as default, as made obvious by statements like, "Its ridiculous that I even have to use a term like Straight Male Gamer, when in the past I would only have to say fans..." I mean, I walk through the "Romance" section of a bookstore, see all the burly man/pretty lady covers, and am all too reminded of the fact that I Am Minority by virtue of being gay. I can't speak to being a racial minority, since I'm white as wonderbread, but I've read it's a similar experience. It's easy to ignore privilege when you're not on the wrong side of it.)

This isn't to say that "straight caucasian male" should be vilified, that Men Are Bad, or even White-Straight-Men-Are-Bad. Nor was I saying that men don't have unique problems as a result of being men (I was actually saying the opposite), and that being a dude is just a sparkly wonderland full of privilege and endless beer. Everyone's got problems!

The point I was making is that the view of feminine qualities as being not as good as masculine qualities is bad for men too. I have a lot more freedom with my gender expression than do men, and I think that's awful.

As a woman, I can safely say that there are a lot of women out there who have their heads as firmly implanted in their asses as some men do. Stupid knows no gender bounds. I'm not sure if we'll ever actually, truly have an egalitarian society, where no one group is seen as better than the other, but does that mean we shouldn't try? (Also, I'm pretty sure a female-dominated society would find ways to be just as nasty as a male-dominated society.)

One gender group is not inherently superior to the other. That is basically the entire point of feminism.

More fun notes on color, pink was regarded as a boy's color for a short while, because red was considered more bold. And up until WWII, kids of both genders wore white dresses until they were, like, six or so. Because it's a lot easier to clean up after "accidents" with a dress, and you can bleach white clothes. I think previous generations had better ideas about kids' clothes than we do noawadays, frankly.

I really don't know if you were actually disagreeing with me totally, or just on points, or at all, because I had trouble discerning your tone. So I may or may not be needlessly clarifying myself. So, uh, enjoy my wall of text regardless?

 

Ahh, okay.

I have to ask. Are you typing on a phone, or are you dyslexic? The typos in that post made it really difficult to read. (Not that I'm criticizing you or anything, I just had some difficulty making out what you were saying.)

 

I honestly wasn't trying to be insulting. I know a dyslexic who gets irritated when people correct her on her spelling and stuff, so I was wondering if there was an underlying reason is all.

I just found it difficult to understand your position when there were sentences where I literally could not make out what you were saying. I still don't know what, "Okay, yea I knew abousm oyustatemnsabu fasio!" was saying. I got about as far as "Okay, yea, I knew about... statement(?)...?"

I'm not trying to be a jerk, it is just very difficult to pick out the finer points you were making when I couldn't make out some of the actual words you wrote.

 

Homosexuality in men has always been looked down upon by Western society in some aspect. Yes, homosexuality was practiced in Sparta during training, but that was just for 'training'. An older soldier would have sexual relations with a younger soldier, but when the younger one was past his training and in war, the relations could no longer continue. Also, there was no romanticism attached to the process. It was kind of, you get in, you get done, that's it (no pun intended). It's said in Greek Mythology that Zeus had relations with men all the time.

But in places like the United States where Christianity rules, the idea of homosexuality is disgusting, because of entries in Leviticus and Daniel. Christian states are ruled by a different set of morals, rules, and ideals. Back in the starting days of the United States, for example, people were very true to the scripture laws. People didn't work on the Sabbath, etc. However, in society we have progressed and 'bent' the laws of the Bible. Which of course, there's a separation of church and state clause in the Constitution, but everyone seems to overlook it. Anywho, I think any kind of homosexual activity would have warranted extreme punishment for those involved.

However, in today's world there is a double standard when it comes to female versus male homosexuality. As I once had the topic of lesbianism's appeal to men (in not so nice terms), "All chick, no dick. It's real nice." Sex serves a different purpose in society now. Sex isn't just for pro-creation, but for recreation. How many tv shows and books and other forms of media glorify the guys that can score with a different woman every night? And when guys see two chicks make out, it just feeds a sexual fire with in them. They see something hot and they love it. But back in the old days, that never would've happened, because people were more prudish.

I'm a huge fan of cinema, especially old movies. And one of the scenes involving homosexuality that always struck me was in Taxi Driver (1976). Peter Boyle's character is telling Robert De Niro's character about a gay male couple he picked up on his taxi route. He describes them as fitting the stereotypes that we all love to hate. He talks about how they argue and 'make up' in the back seat. He then tells De Niro that he leans back and tells them, "Hey I don't care what you do in the privacy of your bedroom, just don't do it in my cab." He tells De Niro that all homosexuals (I can't remember the slang word he used) need to go to California and leave the straight people alone. Would he have reacted different if it would have been two women? Hell yes. His character was a perv, and he would've loved it. So basically, it all comes down to objectifying women.

Women have been objectified for many years. I'm no feminist, well, not a militant feminist. But we all can remember learning in history class about how women couldn't vote until 1920. Women are seen as the weaker sex because they don't have a penis. Simple as that. Mostly all societies are patriarchal in origin. Few are matriarchal. Men are the strong ones, the ones who pillage and find food and keep out attackers while the women pop out children.

People view male homosexuality as wrong because men are supposed to go after women. To pursue them, woo them, bed them, marry them, and reproduce with them. Women are to be courted by men. So when a man courts another man it throws the whole social structure off, metaphorically. Also people look at the way men have sex with each other as gross. Personally it doesn't bug me, but there are others who think all sex is dirty and wrong and immoral (unless used for procreation). People who aren't in the 'lesbian know-how' don't really know how two women have sex.

I guess what I'm saying is, the reason why male homosexuality is looked down upon is because of the view of gender roles and stuff.

 

Dude, she wasn't trying to insult you (and of this...? being fully accessible?) ^


On topic though, yeah it's not all about the two lesbians getting together, it's about two bisexual women who are lonely and there are no men around to pull out their masculine materials and "save" them.

As if in real life a guy saw two lesbians making out, and walks up to them like he's about to get some. Unless you wanna lose your chances of ever producing a kid, I'd suggest not.

 

Uh. Okay. I'm sorry I offended you.

In EC's defense, there are a lot of good folks who want to help here. Don't let me sour your view on it. I'm a cranky ol' feminist and I get a little bit too into discussions sometimes.

 

I find what's even more odd and stupid is that men want to see two women kiss, but the same cannot necessarily be said about women wanting to see two men kissing. I mean some women want to see it but not as many as men wanting to see two women. I think that too is a double standard :S

 

"Bisexual women exist, bisexual men don't."

- Definitely see a double standard here in everything.

Or guys "only" think with their downstairs brain, while girls think deeper. I'm pretty sure guys can think deeper without just using their dicks to point the way.

 

I'm pretty sure I know more women who like to watch men kissing than men who like to watch women kissing..... it definitely goes both ways.

 

When a girl says that she's bi, no one gives a damn. When a guy does, people freak out. A part of this, however, is that people often don't believe women when they claim to be attracted to women, which is certainly a problem. A lot of people think that they just do it to get attention.