Bible & homosexuality

[JudasKissedHIM]

What exactly does the Bible say about homosexuality? I heard it only explicitly bans homosexuality in one part, but it’s in the same chapter (sorry I don’t know what it’s called in English) that bans eating pork, some seafood’s, etc.?

And my grandpa always says he can eat pork now because, while it was banned in the Old Testament, something happened in the New Testament that 'unbanned' it? So why are only those few verses ‘unbanned’ and not the rest?

(P.S- I'm not that familiar with the Bible, so I might really just have this really wrong. But you can help me, right? )

[malachite]

Leviticus 18:22
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

funny though read my signature and check those out, kinda funny

[Mogget]

In the First Testament, Leviticus, yes, but also by implication Exodus 20:14, as biblical marriage is always between a man and (at least one) woman, "adultery" being traditionally understood to include fornication.

In the New Testament there are several passages that can be interpreted to forbid homosexuality.

In my opinion, the Bible, First and New Testaments, is anti-homosexuality. Sexual purity in Jewish culture meant sex only within the confines of (heterosexual) marriage, to the point where masturbation was forbidden and nocturnal emissions rendered men ritually unclean. Paul's views (and pseudo-Paul in the case of, among others, I and II Timothy) on sex were very much Jewish.

The idea that because Jesus never says anything about homosexuality in the Gospels* means he was fine with it is is flawed. In general, if Jesus doesn't say something about a particular topic, he probably supported current Jewish practice regarding it. My interpretation of the Gospels is that Jesus did not, as Paul believed, seek to overturn the Law dictated in the Torah, hence his saying that he came "not come to abolish [the Law and Prophets], but to fulfill them" and his command be more righteous than the Pharisees (Matthew 5:17-20).

The Pharisees, for context, believed in following not only the laws commanded to every Jew, but also the Levitical laws, which at the time applied only to priests. They were zealous in obeying ever jot and tittle of the Law, including the portions devoted to sexual purity.

*Arguable, see my link to Wikipedia above

[Revan]

I find those people who said they've been in heaven and hell when they briefly died. I think it's a load of crock s**t. And I personally don't believe a word of the Bible. I believe in my faith, that's it.

[aidan]

it's all just jibba jabba

[Just Passing]

I find the Bible so inconsistent. It says love thy neighbour and forgive our sins, but supposedly despise Homosexuality.

Yeah people, you should've tried harder with setting the rules for your Holy Book. No offence.

[malachite]

Originally Posted by Just Passing

I find the Bible so inconsistent. It says love thy neighbour and forgive our sins, but supposedly despise Homosexuality.

Yeah people, you should've tried harder with setting the rules for your Holy Book. No offence.

it also says slavery is ok, in fact it has rules how beat your slaves and how to sell your kids into slavery.

[Just Passing]

Originally Posted by malachite

it also says slavery is ok, in fact it has rules how beat your slaves and how to sell your kids into slavery.

Wow.

It's been a long time since I had to read any of the Bible, but damn...

[Nazo]

Spoiler

[Sheyceli]

Originally Posted by Nazo

Spoiler

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That was great. But honestly, if people who follow the bible word-for-word believe that homosexuality is "not natural", what about the snake talking to Adam and Eve, or the sea parting for Moses and all those people to walk on the ocean floor? Last I checked, those don't quite follow the laws of nature, unless of course I've been somewhere else all my life.

[KatKut]

Originally Posted by malachite

funny though read my signature and check those out, kinda funny

I love your signature

---------- Post added 2nd Jun 2011 at 02:54 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Sheyceli

That was great. But honestly, if people who follow the bible word-for-word believe that homosexuality is "not natural", what about the snake talking to Adam and Eve, or the sea parting for Moses and all those people to walk on the ocean floor? Last I checked, those don't quite follow the laws of nature, unless of course I've been somewhere else all my life.

I understand people who believe in God(I personally do)
but I can't understand those who belive in christianism or any other hateful,sadistic and bloody religion

[Ridiculous]

The bible was written about 2 thousand years ago, in a language that no longer exists for a population that couldn't read.

I don't put much weight on what it says.

[Ralf]

Oooh I love blabbing on about this

the main references are:

Leviticus 18:22 - "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination"

Leviticus 20:13 - "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God"

Romans 1:26-28 - "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper"

Leviticus is one of the most boring books in the bible: FACT. He had no life tbh...
He said that one can't eat Shellfish, Lobsters, can't mix fabrics etc etc, the list is a long one.


To be frank, hating on gays is almost definately sinning more than just letting them be. The fact is, we live our day-to-day lives in a completely different way from what is said in the bible. If homosexuality was really that important to avoid doing, it would be in the 10 commandments...
Hatred is what the bible is trying to tell people to avoid doing, so in theory, any christians who claim to hate gays shouldn't really hate on anyone, especially the minorities.

[Ben]

There are many many books on this which manage to, in one way or another, bring together the scriptures and homosexuality. I've never looked deeply into the Hebrew and surrounding debates of the relevant OT passages, but I'm sure there are numerous disagreements in interpretation. Obviously context plays a massive role in all of this—who is the passage aimed at? What is the cultural context? etc.
From what I have read, and admittedly I am not an expert on this (nor do I agree with a lot of queer theology that I have seen), it is extremely possible to be intimately knowledgeable with the scriptures and not to struggle with reconciling religion and sexuality. To me, blindly reading the scriptures to condemn homosexuality draws some parallels with blindly reading the scriptures to condemn the whole religion. It goes a lot deeper than that. I intend to become a lot more familiar with LGBT theology in the coming years and am waiting until then to draw such bold conclusions about Christianity.

[Pseudojim]

Originally Posted by Ben

There are many many books on this which manage to, in one way or another, bring together the scriptures and homosexuality. I've never looked deeply into the Hebrew and surrounding debates of the relevant OT passages, but I'm sure there are numerous disagreements in interpretation. Obviously context plays a massive role in all of this—who is the passage aimed at? What is the cultural context? etc.
From what I have read, and admittedly I am not an expert on this (nor do I agree with a lot of queer theology that I have seen), it is extremely possible to be intimately knowledgeable with the scriptures and not to struggle with reconciling religion and sexuality. To me, blindly reading the scriptures to condemn homosexuality draws some parallels with blindly reading the scriptures to condemn the whole religion. It goes a lot deeper than that. I intend to become a lot more familiar with LGBT theology in the coming years and am waiting until then to draw such bold conclusions about Christianity.

The bible is very clear in many instances about how negative it is toward homosexuality. Allow me to quote myself...

[Shevanel]

I'm Catholic and I don't think the Bible is all too much relevant to the world of today.

[Pseudojim]

Originally Posted by Pseudojim

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind

ya.

Oh, and that's a mixture of old and new testament. Strangely enough, the part where it describes homosexuals as being 'worthy of death' is in the new testament.

---------- Post added 3rd Jun 2011 at 06:48 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Ben

To me, blindly reading the scriptures to condemn homosexuality draws some parallels with blindly reading the scriptures to condemn the whole religion.

Well, it's either completely anti-homosexual, or else (given the number of explicitly homophobic verses) completely self-contradicting... right?

[Raeil]

As a former Christian, when I accepted that I was gay I also realized most of my friends would believe I was a non-repenting sinner. I believed I was, up until the point when I accepted it, so I decided to research it myself. Simply put, I'm of the belief that being gay is not forbidden by Christian standards. First, Leviticus is not useful in discussions, because the word abomination is used with the exact same context to describe eating shrimp, and in the NT, the shrimp thing was absolved of guilt. Second, Paul's views have two main problems which render them unusable. Mainly, he states that women teaching men is a sin, and every church I've ever been to completely ignores this rule. Also, several of his teachings are highly Judaic in nature, and there is great likelihood that his teaching on homosexuality is Judaic, and not Christian in nature. And that finishes all the references to it in the Bible!

"For The Bible Tells Me So" is a fantastic documentary to watch if you're looking for more info on this topic, and it does so with a lot more time and proof than I have given here. Of course, I did say "former" Christian in my first sentence, so I don't really care what the Bible says one way or another, but a lot of my friends do, so I make the effort for them.

[Ben]

Just on the Leviticus 18:22 issue, there're discussions about the ambiguity of the phrasing—there's a Hebrew term which doesn't appear anywhere else in the same structure as in that passage, which probably means something a bit awkward like "lie to the lyings of". It would be unusual to adopt this term instead of using something a lot simpler. Also, one of the terms used for the man involved in the act is 'zakar', which is more likely to be associated with a holy man, i.e. a priest. Then there's the issue of the word 'abomination', which may be describing something that is likely to cause a negative reaction in the surrounding community (i.e. spitting is also described as an abomination).
So the passage could be saying "if a holy man is lay down by a man, this is an act which is not looked upon fondly by the surrounding community". Also, we can draw in the context of the text as a whole or of negative attitudes towards submissive male temple prostitutes…

Raeil pointed out other discussions in Paul's writings and the way that many 'rules' (or guidelines) covered in scriptures are historically disregarded anyway.

[Pseudojim]

Also, i feel apologetics that try to mitigate the blatant homophobia existent throughout multiple books of the bible are clutching at straws.