Response to negative stuff about LGBTs

[fiddledeedee]

Last night at my cell group homosexuality came up a fair bit. It is a Christian group, and I am out to one very supportive person in it, KT. Among other things it was said that while homosexual inclination is not a choice, being gay was. It was said that being gay was a sin (e.g. the case of Sodom and Gommorah), that it could be cured ("I had a friend who was gay for 5 years, but she got through i and was saved."), that it was unnatural, and that the only reason God would make a Christian feel gay was so they could then minister to the gay community. It was also implied that only men were gay, that bisexuals didn't exist, and that there was nothing to being gay but sex; no romantic part like in a straight relationship. I was very grateful to KT as she stood up for me, not overtly but she moved to sit next to me and said that she didn't understand why it was a sin, etc.

What are good, reasoned responses to these types of remarks? Please don't go on about bigoted Christians, or tell me not to go to that group; they are all lovely people and I want to help them see that being gay isn't bad. I do intend to come out to them, as one thing we emphasise is that we will not turn anyone away or judge them. I am glad I haven't yet, though, as I feel they were more honest/open than they might otherwise have been if they knew I was bi. Anyway, what have you responded when you heard these things? What are good counter-arguments?

[Zontar]

Frankly, I wouldn't find this any easier than trying to reason to a two year-old why they can't eat candy and ice cream for breakfast. I mean really, take a look at some of the things they're saying about gays. You're preaching to the choir here.

If I were you, I wouldn't hang out with such irrational people to begin with. What else might they be trying to get you to believe?

[bookworm43]

Seeing as you're determined to be friends with them, why don't you ask them how they feel about what the bible says about slavery in Ephesians 6:5-9, Exodus 21:20-21, and Leviticus 25:44-46? Or, what about, "Love your neighbor as yourself?"

[kiersten]

I think people who use their religious beliefs to look down at or condemn us that do feel we are gay, bisexual, transgendered, etc. do so not because they are bigoted, but because they are themselves confused about their own identity at times, or maybe just questioning their own roles as a matter of curiosity. I am Catholic, I can certainly say that for many years I spent a lot of time both feeling the way I did, but also trying to make sense of the way I felt. Sometimes, I tried to make sense of it all by looking to my faith (God made me this way, etc), but it also scared me that if everyone says it's wrong & it says that it's wrong in the Bible, then how can God do this to me etc. I went around & around like this until I was just scared & exhausted. I think when a lot of people get scared, it's easier to both go with what you've always been taught & been comfortable with & to play whatever role society at large expects of you. As a result, you've got everything you've been told vs everything you are thinking about & feeling guilty over meeting somewhere in the middle & just really getting all jumbled up. I also reconcile the fact that most of the religious texts (Bible, Koran, Torah, etc) were written so long ago when society was so much more radically different than it is today that it's outdated. Plus, I think most people can agree that, just like those who read these texts saying that people like us are wrong or evil & then believe that it is, those people that wrote those texts probably imposed their own values on their work when they were writing it. I have read the Bible & I seriously doubt that there was somebody standing around for every single moment looking over shoulders & writing down everything 2,000 years ago. Basically, people are using very well-meaning guides for faith & completely using them as a means for either burying their own confused feelings, forwarding their own agenda or spreading their own hatred. It all comes down to fear in every case. How do I know this? Sen Joseph McCarthy did it in the 50's using the Constitution & his so-called perception of what patriotism was supposed to be to justify his persecution of so many people, all so he could be seen as a leader, when really he was just a small man trying to force other people to believe what he did.

Sorry about going on & on, I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about why some religious people can be so hateful towards others...

[bookworm43]

i agree 100% with you kiersten, especially the part about the people who wrote the bible looking out for their self-interests, and by doing so, making millions of people today think we are all sinners.

[Owen]

In my experience, it's very, very difficult to get someone to change their minds about this or many other subjects by reason alone. It has been my experience that the best way to get a homophobe to change their mind is to show them that someone they know who is a decent human being is also GLBT, in which case they see that it isn't some abstract entity that only exists "out there somewhere" that they are being prejudiced against, but someone they actually know and love.

When arguing something on an intellectual level, minds aren't often changed because someone can manipulate the arguments to suit their own beliefs or just be stubborn and ignore it. However, when there is a reality staring them in the face that they can't reason away (I use the verb "reason" loosely; I'm sure your friends are lovely people, but if reason alone guided people's opinions about us, there would be no such thing as homophobia), they have much more pressure to consider the fact that their beliefs might not be correct. The absence of experience is the perfect breeding ground for extreme beliefs, and it is often reality that forces us to temper our less moderate opinions. You coming out to them might be the reality check they need, or even the only thing that can change their minds.

[bookworm43]

Originally Posted by Gamer am I

In my experience, it's very, very difficult to get someone to change their minds about this or many other subjects by reason alone. It has been my experience that the best way to get a homophobe to change their mind is to show them that someone they know who is a decent human being is also GLBT, in which case they see that it isn't some abstract entity that only exists "out there somewhere" that they are being prejudiced against, but someone they actually know and love.

When arguing something on an intellectual level, minds aren't often changed because someone can manipulate the arguments to suit their own beliefs or just be stubborn and ignore it. However, when there is a reality staring them in the face that they can't reason away (I use the verb "reason" loosely; I'm sure your friends are lovely people, but if reason alone guided people's opinions about us, there would be no such thing as homophobia), they have much more pressure to consider the fact that their beliefs might not be correct. The absence of experience is the perfect breeding ground for extreme beliefs, and it is often reality that forces us to temper our less moderate opinions. You coming out to them might be the reality check they need, or even the only thing that can change their minds.

Hmm... intresting. I see why you wear the title, The Philosopher

[thecat06]

I am in the same situation as you are, we spend a lot of time in my youth group talking about how LGBT people are sinners, but since I am not out yet, there is not much I can do about it. I've started a conversation in my youth group about why LGBT people are sinners before. Through this conversation I found out that many members of my youth group are not homophobic. I don't think that you can change their beliefs but maybe you can find out if they are accepting of LGBT people. Good Luck!!

[kiersten]

I learned a long time ago that you can't change the mind of someone who hasn't got anything but not changing their mind ever as a way of life. I just try to ignore those people as much as I can & just be me! If I spend all my time worrying about other people's opinions, I'll just drive myself crazy!

[Markio]

This.

+ YouTube Video

As for the Sodom and Gommorah story, I would point out that the scripture does not define the sins of their populations to be their intent to love other men, but rather their use of rape as a form of domination against guests. Later passages in the Bible that refer to Sodom and Gommorah refer to inhospitality as the reason the cities were destroyed. Concluding that male-male sex is the sin in that story is way too presumptuous, and also disregards same-sex relationships that are based on consent and involve hospitable, friendly people.

[soulsister1770]

I have struggled with this issue for years also. I grew up in the Episcopal Church which has been dealing with this issue amongst the clergy for quite some time now. You might try looking up a website called Soulforce.

[Mogget]

Studies have shown time and again that the number one thing that makes people start supporting LGBT people is knowing someone who is LGBT. Coming out is the biggest, best, and most risky thing you can do to change minds.

[bookworm43]

Originally Posted by Markio

This.
Youtube Video

As for the Sodom and Gommorah story, I would point out that the scripture does not define the sins of their populations to be their intent to love other men, but rather their use of rape as a form of domination against guests. Later passages in the Bible that refer to Sodom and Gommorah refer to inhospitality as the reason the cities were destroyed. Concluding that male-male sex is the sin in that story is way too presumptuous, and also disregards same-sex relationships that are based on consent and involve hospitable, friendly people.

LOL I loved this

[Revan]

They say greed was the other sin in Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by fiddledeedee

I want to help them see that being gay isn't bad.

To be honest, I admire how you were able to stay calm and are still able to call them "lovely people", because I would have just got up and left in the middle of the conversation. You can't change anyone's opinion about anything unless they are willing to listen and are ready. As for what I say when I hear negative comments, I simply remove myself from the conversation or situation. Sometimes, there's just no point trying to reason with people because they are dead-set in their ways.

[fiddledeedee]

Thank-you for all the help, guys! I will see them again on Sunday, and I hope to come out to someone then; whether that is a leader I am close to (who wasn't there on Thursday), or the whole group, I haven't decided yet. Even if reason could change their minds, I agree that maybe the best thing is for them to see that I am bisexual and still a committed Christian who loves and is loved by God. I am sort of glad that they said these things, as though I am sad they hold those views the group is a safe place and I would rather encounter homophobia there and learn what people say than in a different environment.

[IanGallagher]

Originally Posted by fiddledeedee

that it was unnatural, and that the only reason God would make a Christian feel gay was so they could then minister to the gay community. It was also implied that only men were gay, that bisexuals didn't exist, and that there was nothing to being gay but sex; no romantic part like in a straight relationship.

I hate this notion without a doubt. It's caused me more confusion in life during adolescence than anything else. Right when I was coming to accept myself was when some lame psycho quack published his "bisexuals don't exist" thesis that later got dismissed. I didn't know that part though until years later... I don't know what to tell them other than to educate themselves about ancient cultures and societies where labels don't exist - all openly bi.

Video:
"I do know this one girl named Heather who goes back and forth." "Shut up!" Lmaol.
Comically somewhat anti-bi, but not since it makes light of it.

[mnguy]

What did this comment, "...while homosexual inclination is not a choice, being gay was..." mean? What distinction are they trying to make?

This comment is so absurd, "...that there was nothing to being gay but sex; no romantic part like in a straight relationship." I would guess that they've been told this and just believed and repeated it. People are gay whether they have sex or not. The majority of the time spent in a relationship, gay or straight, is not having sex.

You can knock those comments out of the park pretty easily if you feel so inclined, although I know it takes a lot of guts to speak up in a group. Best of luck to you enlightening these folks, if you want to make the attempt. Since they are your age (I assume) you might have a decent chance of getting them to think about what they are repeating rather than when they get older and more stuck in their beliefs, no matter how false they are.

Take care

[malachite]

the Bible says eatting shell fish is a sin, so do you go preach @ red lobster that they're all pissing off God? It's all or nothing ppl. Crazies said God would punish us when we started treating women as equals then they said the same thing we gave black people equal rights, is the Bible only a tool of oppression? No? Then don't you think you should using it that way? And isn't the new testimate more about love? So show some of that, if God can lighten up...cant you ? And doesn't all this drama turn ppl away from the lord? Yeah, that isn't gonna piss him off.

[crazyhead]

I would politely say that things like that are just myths. Compare it to saying that black people can't love each other or something. Just be reasonable and call everything they say a myth. When you call something a myth, it's really hard for their mind to erase the point you made.