This isn't about whether gay people go to Hell, it's about a debate that's been sparked in the Evangelical Christian community. Basically, a guy called Rob Bell wrote a book, Love Wins, that suggested that people in Hell will be given an opportunity to repent until, eventually, Hell is empty. It sparked a furious debate among Evangelicals. The Southern Baptist Convention condemned the book as did Reformed (Calvinist) leader John Piper. A number of evangelical bloggers spoke up, many saying that they'd always thought along Rob Bell's lines but had been afraid to say so for fear of censure. Rachel Held Evens went as far as to say that Christians who upheld a traditional Hell must also reject the age of accountability doctrine (which says that unbaptized children who die will go to Heaven). You can read further summaries and links here. All of which is a lead-up to my questions for the Christians on the board. What are your views? What is the nature of Hell? And, by extension, of God? My feeling is that any deity who would condemn people to unending torment isn't worthy of the name and certainly cannot be the essence of love and goodness, but as I'm no longer a Christian, I'm interested in your views.
I'm not a Christian, or any other sort of spiritual denomination whatsoever. But my opinion on the whole thing is the same as the great Stephen Fry's: anyone who tells you what happens after death is either a fool or a liar. It's futile to try analyse something that no one will ever have any knowledge about whatsoever, and disgusting that people think they can control other people with their supposed 'knowledge'.
^ This. I'm tired of people who think they know everything about the afterlife and what happens. It'll happen when it happens. Why even worry about what's gonna happen after you die? Why can't people just go on enjoying life as much as possible? It's not like we'll ever have a way of knowing what the afterlife is like, because the person who experiences it is, well, dead! Some people just need to stop trying to know something that's clearly beyond human comprehension. Sorry if I sound rude. I have a to-the-point kind of speech style. :icon_redf
Not a Christian here, but I do have an answer. Fact is, people fear death. It's something that is undeniable and unpreventable. The reason people want to know what's going to happen after we die is because most people want to believe there is something after we die. I personally hope that when I die, it's not all just going to go black or white, and then done, I'm hoping that something will happen and I won't just rot in the ground or be flamed into dust (cremation). So yeah the reason people can't just enjoy life is because they want to know what happens after life and that it doesn't just END. As for Hell...doesn't exist. Anyone who says they've "died" and "come back" and tells of stories of flames is ridiculous. I believe there's something after, but I don't for one second believe in the idea of Hell. It's a story to get Christians and other people who believe in it to follow the rules and not sin. You want to believe in a Hell? Guess what. YOU'RE IN ONE!
Where is God's love if our own will dictates our ultimate fate? What use is God then? Can we really impose a shape onto God's grace? To some, all we can do is hope. To me, I think it's pretty logical that hell would either be a state of being here and now (ala Luther), transient, or empty. But I'm not a Christian, so…
I grew up learning that in the existence of hell you are able to repent for your sins and will be forgiven if you are truly sorry for what you have done. Also I believe that unbasptized children should be allowed a chance to get into heaven because they were never taught what to believe and that their parents should be at fault for that. Also I am questioning god in itself and my beliefs in general
In a nutshell, I believe that the extreme right-wing religious people are folk with tiny minds in sour dispositions & if my God is going to send anyone to hell simply for arbitraty reasons or because the right-wing believes he'll punish those people that the right-wing seem to persecute through life anyway, then I'll just have to go & find myself another one. The God I believe is just, merciful & loving & doesn't send people to hell based on a laundry list of broken rules. Hell, I think, is a place where there is an absence of hope. By definition, any community that supports its members has hope & therefore, in fact, cannot be Hell. That is why, I think, extremely right-wing religious people are so miserable. They are already in Hell. Their religious communities don't support each other, they just feed on each other's fear to exist & if one of them suddenly doesn't fit their preconceived notion of what the group should be, that person is instantly shunned. If anyone's in Hell, it's extremely homophobic people, because they have a bleak, narrow view of the world that doesn't include compassion or hope or love...
of course a Calvanist would condem such a book... they believe hell is for all god choose not to save before they were born. To a calvanist, salvation is preordained. their really screwy. The ironic thing is that if we are to believe christanity is based on the teachings of christ, the most outspoken of christians are the ones that christ says hell awaits them.
Hi Liam, I've yet to read Rob Bell's book, mainly because I find him to be a bit of a panderer in what he writes. This book has definitely been controversial, but by no means is it a new idea. All theology is man's best attempts at defining and understanding God, which is more or less an exercise in futility, but that's why we have faith. I am a Christian, I've majored in religion, and will be going back to school in about a year to be a pastor and counselor. Theology is both simple and complicated at the same time. So much is a mystery, so much we cannot know - yet we try as best we can. For someone who is part of any faith tradition, faith is the hope in trust in what we can't see. As I've wrestled with my faith over the years, I've come to the understanding that God is so great, that his love and his grace are so powerful, that one day, all will be drawn to him. Though it is our choice, when you are loved in such a way, your heart can't help but respond. I can't debate or prove the existence or logistics of heaven or hell. I honestly don't think it's supposed to be of terrible concern to us - especially as so little is mentioned about either place, and the Hebrew Scriptures concepts of Shamayim (the sky/"Heaven") and Sheol ("the grave") don't really line up with the more contemporary versions of Heaven and Hell that we've developed over the centuries. The bible is very vague on these concepts despite popular belief. The old place of fire and the devil torturing people for eternity is more of a 16th century idea or something out of Milton's Paradise Lost or Dante's Inferno. Pretty much the same with the harps and clouds and angels in heaven. What I see from Genesis to Revelation is that 1. We are deeply loved by God and he calls us to walk with him and participate in relationship with him. 2. That we love him with all we have, and that we love ourselves and our neighbors with that same intensity. The whole point of all of Christianity comes down to that. Most of what Jesus said and did focused on this. The important thing is that we focus on the here and now, on how to love one another, to stand up for the weak, to be agents of peace and fight for justice. These are the things we are called to, and what ultimately (I believe) Christians will be held accountable to. Unfortunately we're not always great at doing so. Christianity can get a bad rap, as do many or all religions at some level. It's not undeserved, there are a lot of mistakes and a lot of hypocrisy, but there is also a lot of good. I understand that and I have been at the place of alienation and rejection of religion, especially Christianity when I was younger, but for me, it came down to God revealing himself to me, and pulling be up from death and destruction and drawing me into himself with his great love. One of the reasons I feel called to be a pastor is to be a voice of love and acceptance to those who have been burned by the church. I have been too, in terrible ways, but I can't walk away, I can only walk with my brothers and sisters in faith and try to make it better by showing how to love better, to accept God's radical grace, and to help heal this world where so many people suffer. I'm sure that's more than you wanted to hear. Evangelicals/Fundamentalists can be a particularly difficult group to navigate (I've had many a headache in discussions), but you can't or at least shouldn't lump all people of any faith into the same basket- just as you shouldn't do with people of race, gender, orientation, class, age, or any other thing. Their notions of sin and grace are very limited and are based on fear, not freedom. As I've come to understand sin, I believe it is anything that destroys relationships be that between God and ourselves, or ourselves and our neighbors. It is whatever denigrates the intrinsic value of human life, that chooses selfishness and greed at the expense of another - that causes the suffering of others. I didn't expect to write a novel, especially not when it's almost 2am, but those are some of my thoughts. Faith like all things, is a journey, and we don't move in anything apart from grace, be it the grace we afford ourselves and one another, or the grace that God gives us in all things. All the best, Justin
I'm not religious and the chances are I'll never ever read Rob Bell's book, but I personally agree with Stephen Fry on the subject (the man is awesome), but I do fear death. Whilst the likelihood for me is that there's nothing once you die, I feel more comfortable at the thought of some spiritual afterlife (which is a religious idea in itself), like a sequel to being alive.
