Its not a choice or is it?

[Bibliophile]

This was sparked by another thread and a few conversations I have had recently and I want to post a disclaimer first. I do not intend to insult anyone nor do I intend to imply that you or your view points are wrong. I simply am posting my own view and nothing more.

I have heard time and again being GLB is not a choice. Ok fair enough you cannot help who are are attracted to. But to me this sentence seems to imply if it were I would choose to be otherwise. However what I will say is that LIVING the lifestyle IS a choice. Anyone could choose to pretend to be straight, find a partner people think is ok and even have kids. Heck they might even find a semi balance of happiness out of it all. Would they be totally fulfilled no but who is?
What is so wrong with saying this is who I am and I choose to acknowledge it and live in a fashion true to myself? That I CHOOSE to live my life with another man/women and it makes me happy so up yours. Its just that so many people in the GLBT community seem to say its not my fault when they should say its my life and it makes me happy.

Then another statement I saw in that thread that sparked this idea is that if it were a disease that could be cured the person would do so if it were safe.......wow was all I thought. How many people feel that way? I mean would you really "cure" love of the same sex just to live a "normal" life if you could? I mean that just seems wrong to me.

I don't know it just kind of irks me when people come off like being GLBT is something to say if only I could be normal I would about. I am proud of who I am and would never change it or even suggest that I would.
Sorry if this is incoherent as it all sounded better in my head a few minutes ago.

[RaeofLite]

I think the debate on whether it's a choice or not starts with the fact that people believe that they don't have a choice in whether they are attracted to the same sex/opposite sex or both.. not whether they choose to act on it. The choice is in whether they are attracted to the same sex.

That's what people mean by choice.

For example: I do not choose to be attracted to other females. I can choose whether or not to act on that. However, I would not be happy and living my life as I should be, because I am not sexually attracted to men.

[Bibliophile]

Originally Posted by RaeofLite

I think the debate on whether it's a choice or not starts with the fact that people believe that they don't have a choice in whether they are attracted to the same sex/opposite sex or both.. not whether they choose to act on it. The choice is in whether they are attracted to the same sex.

That's what people mean by choice.

For example: I do not choose to be attracted to other females. I can choose whether or not to act on that. However, I would not be happy and living my life as I should be, because I am not sexually attracted to men.

I know that. I get that its not really healthy to hide who you really are. However its the underlying attitude of "if I could be "normal" I would" that bothers me. I am happy to stand here and say this is me and how I choose to live and I would hope that everyone can do that one day. Sure I might not be totally out but I have never said that I want to change or even hinted at it, yet the phrase "its not a choice" seems to carry that subtext is my main point.

[Just Passing]

I'd say elements of your sexuality is a choice, but not entirely and it's more genetic than choice. Regardless of whether or not you're gay, it's up to the individual to choose to act upon those feelings in the first place to truly discover themselves.

Still, it'll be an interesting debate all the same and I bet I'm wrong.

[Owen]

As has been said, the language of "it isn't a choice" is a response to anti-GLBT bigots who think that being gay somehow is a choice, that someone can choose to be attracted to the same sex, an idea they used to justify their bigotry. Obviously, this is BS, but I bring it up because it provides the foundation of the idea of it not being a choice.

I have heard time and again being GLB is not a choice. Ok fair enough you cannot help who are are attracted to. But to me this sentence seems to imply if it were I would choose to be otherwise. However what I will say is that LIVING the lifestyle IS a choice. Anyone could choose to pretend to be straight, find a partner people think is ok and even have kids. Heck they might even find a semi balance [I think you meant "semblance"?] of happiness out of it all. Would they be totally fulfilled no but who is?

I'm sure this part is probably not vital to the point you are making and is more of an aside than anything, but it's something I've thought about before, so I'll give my thoughts on it.

Lets look at a hypothetical someone who enjoys listening to metal music. He loves metal music and doesn't get much enjoyment, if any, out of listening to other genres. I think we can agree that liking metal music is not a choice. But to say that listening to it is a choice just seems to me to be... shortsighted, I guess is the word for it. Sure, our hypothetical metalhead could choose to listen to classical music instead of metal, but why would he? He gets no enjoyment out of it, and he'd spend the whole time knowing he'd enjoy listening to metal more. Sure, he might learn to find some enjoyment in listening to classical music, but that learned enjoyment will always pale in comparison to the enjoyment he gets out of listening to metal. Knowing all that, why would he ever choose to force himself to listen to classic music instead of metal?

The same thinking applies to sexuality. Yes, a gay person could choose to persue a heterosexual relationship instead of a homosexual one, just as he could choose to listen to music he doesn't like or eat food he doesn't like or drive nails into his skin. All of these are choices he could make; the real issue is, why would he ever make those choices? There are plenty of reasons to pursue one option, and no good reasons to pursue the other. Like I said, to call this a choice is really very short-sighted, because it's like saying that driving nails into your skin is a choice; technically, it is, but being that there's no reason to do it, it isn't much of a choice. That's my view on the matter; if someone does see a good reason to pursue a relationship that is not in harmony with their sexuality that thus thinks it is legitimately a choice, I won't deny that they do.

Then another statement I saw in that thread that sparked this idea is that if it were a disease that could be cured the person would do so if it were safe.......wow was all I thought. How many people feel that way? I mean would you really "cure" love of the same sex just to live a "normal" life if you could? I mean that just seems wrong to me.

I don't know it just kind of irks me when people come off like being GLBT is something to say if only I could be normal I would about. I am proud of who I am and would never change it or even suggest that I would.

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but it is mine: if the option to turn straight were available to me, I would take it, because after having come to truly accept my sexuality, I am not attached to it. Being gay is not a point of pride for me: it's just part of who I am. It certainly isn't something I'm ashamed of, but pride and shame are not the only emotions one can feel towards their sexuality; they can also feel indifference, and that's what I feel towards the fact that I am gay. It just exists as part of my identity, like my right-handedness, my brown hair, my love of math, and my enjoyment of melodic black metal. I view it the same way I view all of those other things.

Now, because I don't have any pride about being gay, I'm not attached to it as part of my identity, and I am nowhere near delusional enough to not acknowledge that life would be easier as a straight man than a gay man. I could experience that same love, attachment, connection, and all of those other things I feel for men now, but I could do it in a way that our culture does not stigmatize, and there would be many more opportunities for me to do so (being that there are more straight/bi women in the world than gay/bi men). So why shouldn't I want to take the opportunity to change if I so desire? What so wrong with making a decision that would make my life easier if there would be no downsides? (Again, there would be no downsides for me because I am not attached to my sexuality; I can fully see how there would be downsides to making that decision for someone who is.) That's my view on the matter.

[thedreamwatch]

Someday, the "I'd be normal if i could" thing won't exist. I honestly believe that when society's mind has changed over what "normal" sexuality is, nobody will be saying it anymore. Because I dont think it's so much about being gay or bisexual, it's about the goal of normalcy. If we change what normal means, nobody will want to wish themselves straight.

[Bibliophile]

Gamer you made several really good points and yes I did mean semblance, cant spell to save my life and spell check some times fails me.

I understand that while it is a choice to live that way its not exactly healthy or smart to do so. However I disagree with the idea that there is no reason to do so. Like you said being straight would be easier no?

Now onto the becoming straight if you could I have to ask, if tomorrow you could be made straight with no ill effect despite being in a committed relationship with another man would you? Would you look into the eyes of someone you loved and spent say even one year with and say sorry but I am going to take the easy way out? If so they why not pretend to be strait now? I mean as was said you might now get as much enjoyment out of it but you could probably find some? I am not trying to be antagonistic here I just want to understand the view point you have take because you made great points and are rather well spoken about it.

[Just Passing]

I must admit, the option of being straight has been an intriguing one. I like the feeling of being gay and I have come to terms with it, but I would possibly take the option to be straight if I could. No idea why though.

As for my Aspergers, I probably wouldn't want to give that up, despite its difficulties.

[Zontar]

Oddly enough, there's a woman on the Internet who claims to have actually made the choice to be gay: Queer by Choice dot com

Frankly, I'm not entirely sure what she's getting at, but if I were studying sexuality in academia, I'd definitely e-mail her with a question or two. If you visit the links page, she's got a ton of people listed who've also apparently "chosen" to be gay.

Troll? Serious? My best guess is that all these people are misinformed bisexuals. One thing that mystifies me above all else is why someone would actively choose to be gay to begin with...

[Just Passing]

Originally Posted by Zontar

Oddly enough, there's a woman on the Internet who claims to have actually made the choice to be gay: Queer by Choice dot com

Frankly, I'm not entirely sure what she's getting at, but if I were studying sexuality in academia, I'd definitely e-mail her with a question or two. If you visit the links page, she's got a ton of people listed who've also apparently "chosen" to be gay.

Troll? Serious? My best guess is that all these people are misinformed bisexuals. One thing that mystifies me above all else is why someone would actively choose to be gay to begin with...

I don't know if I'll ever read it, but I've got to applaud their "choice" in choosing to be gay.

[Mogget]

Originally Posted by Zontar

One thing that mystifies me above all else is why someone would actively choose to be gay to begin with...

I can think of all sorts of reasons. Say you were a radical feminist, one of the ones who believe that nothing good can come of associating with men, or wanted to live in a lesbian separatist commune. If you were still horny and wanted a life partnership, you might well want to choose to be a lesbian.

Or say you'd been victimized (sexually or not) by someone of the opposite sex. This might make you extremely nervous around members of the opposite sex, so you might not want to be around them. You might want to choose to be gay/lesbian.

Or say that politically you were strongly aligned with radical queer thought. In order to be better accepted by that community, you might want to choose homosexuality. I almost fit this last. Being gay fits my relationship to the rest of the world far better than being straight would, and has done so long before I realized I was gay.

Originally Posted by Bibliophile

Its just that so many people in the GLBT community seem to say its not my fault when they should say its my life and it makes me happy.

In my opinion, a lot of lgbt do not say this because then it would open to doors to religious groups saying, "AHA! It's a choice afterall. You are proud that you are a mess up" or something along those lines. We know the truth about whether what we are is really a choice or not. But living in the society that we live in today, our business is somebody else's business, so we HAVE to prove ourselves to straight people. Sometimes I don't understand Christians though. If you want to say that what I am is a choice, then fine we'll assume it's a choice to appease them. But I'm not Christian and the US gov't is not ruled by the Bible...soooo...

[Zontar]

Originally Posted by Liam

I can think of all sorts of reasons. Say you were a radical feminist, one of the ones who believe that nothing good can come of associating with men, or wanted to live in a lesbian separatist commune. If you were still horny and wanted a life partnership, you might well want to choose to be a lesbian.

Or say you'd been victimized (sexually or not) by someone of the opposite sex. This might make you extremely nervous around members of the opposite sex, so you might not want to be around them. You might want to choose to be gay/lesbian.

Or say that politically you were strongly aligned with radical queer thought. In order to be better accepted by that community, you might want to choose homosexuality. I almost fit this last. Being gay fits my relationship to the rest of the world far better than being straight would, and has done so long before I realized I was gay.

Good points, all of course still operating on the premise that sexuality can be chosen.

Given my personal experience, the experiences of others, and the research done on sexuality, this woman still (to me at least) sounds as ridiculous as saying you choose for your water to fall upwards when you spill it over.

If you look deeply into what she's saying, it could be that being gay is positive enough that even if it were a choice after all, it would be a good one.

[Owen]

I am not trying to be antagonistic here I just want to understand the view point you have take because you made great points and are rather well spoken about it.

Thank you. I shall do my best

I understand that while it is a choice to live that way its not exactly healthy or smart to do so. However I disagree with the idea that there is no reason to do so. Like you said being straight would be easier no?

Yes, being straight would be easier, but I think pretending to be straight when one are actually gay would certainly not be easier than living according to ones homosexuality.

Now onto the becoming straight if you could I have to ask, if tomorrow you could be made straight with no ill effect despite being in a committed relationship with another man would you? Would you look into the eyes of someone you loved and spent say even one year with and say sorry but I am going to take the easy way out?

Of course not; that would be extremely callous of me. But being that I am single, that would not be an issue for me, so if the option were available to me, I could become straight without causing any ill effects to those around me.

If so they why not pretend to be strait now? I mean as was said you might now get as much enjoyment out of it but you could probably find some?

Maybe I could find some enjoyment in a straight relationship, but I think that enjoyment would pale in comparison to the enjoyment I would find in a relationship with another man, because even in this hypothetical scenario, I am still gay. Pretending to be straight isn't going to change the fact that I am still attracted only to men, and thus if I were to try to pursue a relationship with a women, it wouldn't be as fulfilling. Because while the emotional side of a relationship might be replicable with a woman, the sexual side wouldn't be, and I have enough experience to know that the sexual side of a relationship makes it more than worth it to go for a relationship that is in line with your sexuality.

The only reason I would become straight if I could is that, like I said, there are many more women who like men out there than men who like men, and I think a relationship with the right woman as a straight man wouldn't be appreciably different from a relationship with the right man as a gay man, so my willingness to change my sexuality comes down solely to increasing my odds of finding a partner.

[bookworm43]

hmm well what your saying is that it is your choice that you live the life you live. but the life you live is a direct result from your bisexuality, which is/isn't a choice (depending how you look at it.). Do you think that's a choice?

[Danny19]

This is interesting. In my opinion, hell no its not a choice. Being gay is something you are born with and you cant do anything about it. However acting on it is obviously a choice. but its the choice that is almost by "force". To have a happy life yea. Now to pretend and live the straight life when one is not isnt good. You would live your life pretending to be something your not, and honestly the truth always comes out. i had a teacher that said "Pretending to be someone your not is a waste of the person you are." i dont remember who she quoted but i like it.

[Bibliophile]

Gamer: Again all good points but I must comment on one thing. The idea that a relationship with a man is not markedly different from a relationship with a women. Granted I have not had much experience in this area but from what little I do have everything from the feel of the relationship to the feel of the sex are vastly different. Just my two cents there.

Bookworm: I think I understand what you are driving at and yes I still say its a choice. I did something I hated for six years because I agreed to it. Sure my feelings about it where not a choice but my actions where. Thus yes like it or not we control how we act on our feelings.

Danny: I like that quote.

[Chandra]

I'm going to copy-paste what I wrote in another thread on this same subject, because my opinion hasn't varied:

I'm going to be the voice of dissent here and say that I do think sometimes it can be a choice. I in fact know somebody personally who says that after years of dating men (and feeling no interest in women whatsoever), she was pursued by a woman and decided, why not, I'll give it a try. Since then she has only dated women. You could argue that she was fundamentally bisexual from birth without knowing it, but she is adamant that this is not the case.

I do think that in the vast majority of cases, sexuality is genetic/biological/whatever and not chosen. But I don't like to make blanket generalizations about such things, because there are always exceptions.

This is why I have a bit of a problem with the whole "gays should have rights because it's not a choice" argument. Gay, lesbian and bisexual people should have rights because it's right - because nobody should be allowed to dictate what two consenting adults who have fallen in love can do - whether it's a choice or not.

I completely understand why people for whom it isn't a choice react with anger and adamant rebuttals when certain political/religious groups try to claim that it is a choice. But in my opinion, claiming that either point of view must be absolutely true for everyone is unfair and misguided.

---------- Post added 5th Jul 2011 at 07:18 PM ----------

BTW, for people saying "why would anybody choose to be gay", in the case of the person mentioned above, from what I understand she has continued to date only women because she found that she prefers the more equal power dynamic in same-sex relationships.

[nerdyboy87]

Having a partner of the opposite sex when you're homosexual brings it's own problems, and not just the whole 'not being true to yourself'. For one thing, very little good ever comes out of getting into a romantic relationship with a person youre not attracted to, for any reason. Everything will be artificial in it. It's not going to last very long.

It's also quite difficult. I've noticed women can sense when you're being artificial. When you're just phoning it all in, well they can sense that and they're not gonna go for you, usually.

Then there's the ethical problems with it. Nobody likes to be used, and that's exactly what one would be doing with their spouse, basically just using her to live a normal life. It's also a setup for future heartbreak, since as mentioned it won't last long, and breakup is practically inevitable. It just seems like a horrible thing to do to another person all for the selfish desire to lead a normal life.

[Revan]

Being attracted to the same or opposite sex is not a choice, acting on it is. I can still be gay, but I have the choice of whether I have sex with another man.

As for the whole disease thing, to me the only disease in this world that is really harmful and is in all of us (not talking cancer, diabetes, etc because like i said "in all of us") is hate. Some display hate, others are kind but have inside them potential judgment which can be a form of hate. Frankly if there's one thing in this world I wish COULD be cured (aside from cancer, etc lol) is hate. I don't believe as many wars would happen if hate didn't exist. I believe people wouldn't be murdered over hate, or perhaps jealousy as another example of hate causing death. And I believe that we wouldn't have to at times act a different way to prevent ourselves from harm, if hate didn't exist.

Hate is what fills this world and until we can let go of our hate, this world is never going to truly become a better place.