My church youth worker's response to me

Hey Liz,

I read your post and I think that many of us can relate to the dilemma present in it. Societies all have a set of laws and values, and who is to say that these values are correct but the one who creates them. When someone disagrees with morals that are said to be God's word, that's when the trouble arises.

I thought that my mind was made up about what the bible says for me, but I have to say that this letter has again raised a few more questions for me. I think it is important to keep in mind that the bible, which is supposed to be the written word of God, was written by man. How many times has man used these texts to persecute, and kill?

I'm not certain if I have come to peace with whether or not I believe in Christianity, but maybe God does have a plan for all of us. Your youth worker mentioned that God would provide us a way out of temptation, so that It does not become unbearable. homosexuality is not the only turbulence I have had to deal with in my life. I have accepted my sexuality, and if the only way out is celibacy I'm not prepared to lay my happiness on the line for man's opinion on the bible. I've tried suppressing it, I've tried being straight, and there has been no way out.

I think that happiness is what matters in the end, and as long as you are not hurting yourself or anyone else, I don't think happiness is too much to ask for.

I wish you the best of luck, and congrats on coming out.

 

She seems like a very nice lady, but her beliefs do not really agree with mine. I believe that God does not care what your sexual orientation is, I have come to peace with this. God loves everyone and I don't even think that you have to believe in god in order to make it into heaven. But anyhow, she seems like a christian that is a bible thumper, but i don't think she is one of those mean in your face bible thumpers. In other words, her beliefs disagree with mine, but she does not scare me.

 

Her points are pretty much accurate from the standpoint of scripture.

Ultimately, it's up to you to determine whether or not the Bible is divine enough for you to abstain from homosexual relations. Remember, merely being gay can never be construed as a sin.

For reasons other than being gay, I've left organized religion a while ago, but I invite you to ask yourself the question of *how* the Bible can possibly be "God's only word." Who wrote it? Who determined the canonicity? How would God possibly have any influence over it in a hands-off world?

 

Read this reply and read it again. Nicely put Zontar.

Due to my beliefs or lack there of I will refrain from adding anything else to this thread.

 

The other thing I think about is what kind of stuff was translated over and over very carefully to make a certain thing (like homosexuality, for example) wrong.

Anyway, the reality is, as far as "sin" goes... I have love in my heart. Sure, it's for another girl, but it's the same love. Christianity at it's very best is all about love and helping people and being a good person.

So I have love in my heart. What do other people have in their hearts when they pass their judgement on me?

That's not said to make anyone mad, it's just something I've been thinking about.

 

I believe that any healthy relationship has much more value, meaning, and moral fiber than simply being a "temptation." That goes for straight relationships and queer ones. If sexual attraction to someone of the same sex is considered "temptation," then so is sexual attraction to someone of the opposite sex.

Of course, that may not be what she intends for that verse to refer to. This lady is pretty considerate, in that she doesn't just impose her own answer on you but instead encourages you to think for yourself.

 

I find organised religion a very difficult one; a lot of these people mean well but their beliefs can be extremely hurtful for gay people. I'm not a believer to be honest, but I think that you could probably sum up the entire Christian theology as being based upon Christ's maxim of 'Love thy neighbour' regardless of who they are. I'm no expert on Christianity but I would have thought that the fact the gay people are a set upon minority would have made Christ stand up for them, like he did for the tax collector etc.

Anyway I don't want to push my views on you, I'm not into religion but that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for you in it maybe.

Ultimately I've got to agree with Markio and TheDreamWatch in that 'queer' love and 'straight' love aren't really different at all; I'm still capable of loving, it just so happens that it's a man that I love. Just because someone loves someone of the same sex doesn't make it any less real, and if God does exist I can't imagine him not understanding that.

I hope you find some answers in this thread, this is a tricky topic!

 

Long post incoming from a former Christian (who came to the conclusion as a Christian that homosexuality and Christianity were compatible). Please read all of it, as it took me an hour to do all my research and get it posted, and I think it'll be helpful in your response.

I'm glad that this person took the time to start with love before getting into the discussion on homosexuality. Hopefully, she'll remain a great ally and friend, even if you end up moving away from what she perceives as the way of Scripture. The reason I say that is because, Scripturally, she hasn't done enough research. While our modern interpretations of the Biblical scriptures are all well and good, if they aren't supported by the culture, context, and language of the day they were written, then they are flawed.

Here's the problem with 1 Cor. 6:9 and another verse which is similar (1 Tim. 1:10) - Two things in the days of the Bible could be considered homosexual. The first was a consensual relationship between two adult men, however, the men could not be married because the culture of the day would not allow it. Men had to marry women, and therefore two men could not be in a married relationship with one another. Thus, this relationship fell under "sexually immoral" due to that actually being from a word which meant sexual contact between unmarried adults. The second form of homosexuality was a prostitution based relationship between an adult male and a young male, where the young male was the prostitute. Paul specifically wished to call out the adult male in this relationship (as he had already covered the young male through "male prostitute") and thus he made up a word arsenkoites to denote this. Sadly, this word is often translated as homosexuality, which has resulted in a lot of stress from this passage on the Christian LGBT community. So, since neither of these relationships are equivalent to a married, same-sex couple, this verse does not apply to condemn a married, same-sex couple.

Leviticus 18:22-29 are also flawed for their use to condemn modern homosexual relationships. The Hebrew word for "abomination" as it is used in Leviticus 18:22 is the identical Hebrew word for "abomination" as it is used in Leviticus 11:10-12. In both of these passages, YHWH is laying down the laws of ritual purity, not the laws of sin. As a matter of fact, the second scripture I used condemns the eating of shellfish as an "abomination," which is a ritually impure thing to do. Christians are not required to follow the laws of ritual purity, and therefore this verse is moot when discussing any kind of homosexual activity.

Finally, Romans 1:26-27 is a straightforward condemnation of same-sex behaviour, when taken on it's own. It is important to remember that Paul's works are extremely context based, and it is therefore useless to quote two verses without taking the whole chapter into account. So, with that in mind, what is the context of Romans 1? In this chapter, Paul is writing a condemnation of idolatrous rituals and worship, of which sex orgies were quite common. Note that in verse 24, the people were engaged in heterosexual orgies, then in verse 25 they worshipped the idol, and then our key verses roll around and (in response to the idol worship) "God gives them up into vile affections." Note that the sin was not homosexuality, but idol worship. The reason the words "unnatural" and "vile" are used is because these are strictly heterosexual people engaging in homosexual acts. Because these verses, when taken in context, apply to Christians who have left Christianity in order to become pagans who engage in sexual rituals as a form of idol worship, they are completely misapplied if used to speak of modern homosexuality.

---

Now that I've finished my Scriptural inspection of these verses, what is left in the Bible that condemns homosexuality? ... There are actually no more verses. Well, there might be one or two more, but those suffer from the "arsenkoites" problem and the culture context problem as well. In other words, the Bible does not condemn homosexuality any more than it condemns heterosexuality. To link this with some of the later part of her letter, you will come under the same sexual temptations as anyone else, and God will give you the power to resist that temptation. Attraction towards a female, however, is NOT one of these temptations.

You mentioned that you didn't quite understand her last questions, and I think it's because it's not extremely clear how they are related. In her mind, it is not in God's plan for anyone to live their lives as a non-heterosexual person, or at least it seems that way from the way she has quoted Scripture, without context, to support that viewpoint. Thus, if you answer Yes to the first question "do I believe God's plan is the best for me?" then you must consequently answer "I must not allow myself to have feelings towards girls" for the second question.

I can tell that this leader is trying her best to do what is right for you. Unfortunately, if she doesn't change her views on how homo/bisexuality and Christianity are related, then her attempts to help you will probably attempt to move you away from bisexuality towards heterosexuality. I hope that you'll be able to change her views, but if you can't then I hope it doesn't poorly affect your relationship.

Good luck as you work this out! If you need to use anything from the Scriptural research in this post, feel free!

 

I think it's important to remember that the Bible was written during a period which was basically pretty savage. We've made improvements in some areas, but basically we're still pretty rough around the edges.

Regardless of your relationship with God, large portions of the Bible are completely inapplicable to life today in any part of the world, simply because they are dependent on the context they're written in.

The Bible was written by man. If it holds any divinity, it is for standing as a record of the words of Western society's most famous prophets, but it's still hearsay. It does not make sense for God to lay down an end-all be-all guide for the ages that is bound by historical context when it cannot be interpreted for future generations.

I think Christianity is due for a new testament.

Personally, I feel that homosexuality is interpreted as a sin by the Bible because it is always convenient for spiritual leaders to have a built-in scapegoat. You have to keep in mind that Western society was burning "witches" at the stake just a few hundred years ago. Africa is still doing it.

To quote a pastor, "It's pretty clear that you've created God in your own image when it turns out he hates all the same people you do."



^ That being said, this lady seems nice, she just has a fundamentally differing opinion than you do. It happens. As you get older, you'll find it happening more and more often. As far as differing opinions go, she couldn't have shared hers more politely than she did, I think.