Nobody flame me, but I'm sure others feel this way

[TwistyRainbow]

Ok, so politically I'm a moderate liberal, and religiously I'm a 'spiritual agnostic,' so I never, even before I realized I was gay, had any problems with same-sex marriage. Why should I care what other people do if it doesn't affect me? Well anyway, since coming out, I guess my viewpoint has changed slightly. I obviously still support same-sex marriage with a great depth of conviction, but as far as me having one... I don't know. Maybe it's because the word 'marriage' conjures up visions of crazy amounts of stress, lots of familial friction, and my sister breaking a 300-year old crystal chandelier with her wedding bouquet (true story). The way I look at it, for me, I don't need a piece of paper or an afternoon-long ceremony to be with someone for the rest of my life. I'd be perfectly happy getting a civil union (so long as spousal rights come with that also) or being in a domestic partnership. Don't get me wrong, if my bf/whatever we decide to call ourselves wants to go down the aisle, I'd love to do nothing more because it's what he wants. I'd even wear a garter (not the dress, I don't have the ass for a dress :P)! I guess what I'm saying is that, like having no sex or lots of sex outside of a committed relationship, or wearing fluorescent pink hot pants with a bullseye on the back (which would be a GREAT fashion choice for your bf when he meets your family at Xmas), marriage is a choice, one of those things about being gay (besides actually being gay, of course) that you can choose to do or not do. Just as, one day, we will hopefully gain the right to marry whatever adult we want, we will also gain the right to choose *not* to marry that adult; otherwise, marriage is no longer a right.

[Austin]

Well, straight people have a choice whether or not to marry as well, and when gay marriage is legalized you still don't have to get married. There might be social pressure to, not sure if that is what you are referring to.

Also I am not quite sure whether you're saying being gay is a choice, the way you worded it...

And marriages offer a lot more rights (that monogamous gay couples rightly deserve) than a civil union, not sure if you knew that.

[thylvin]

Here in Namibia (or Nambabwe as Hubby and I like to refer) If a straight couple lives for more than 5 years together, they consider it as a marriage even though you are not married (got to do with the law and a few cases that turned out really bad)

But like hubby and I, we only got married between us, no ceremonies, no people, just me and him. we are planning to eventually get it legal in SA, but at the moment we like it this way, besides, getting a new ID, Passports and so on is one huge shlep... African governments can take their time and this would be a two to three years of going into the ministry of home affairs every week, standing in so long cues it goes out of the building for several blocks!

[maverick]

Here in Namibia (or Nambabwe as Hubby and I like to refer) If a straight couple lives for more than 5 years together, they consider it as a marriage even though you are not married (got to do with the law and a few cases that turned out really bad)

Same in my region. "Common law" marriages are very...well...common.

I think that everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, should have access to common law marriage rights. If you are together with a person for five years or more, you deserve spousal benefits whether you've walked the aisle or not, because that's an established household as far as I'm concerned...

[Elven]

I agree with you, I don't plan to marry or even have a civil partnership unless my partner insists, I'm really not a very religious person so I don't care about that side of things and all that matters to me about any relationship is that me and my partner are happy and contented being together. My parents are a straight, christian couple, also not married and have never been as such, they are fine, have different surnames (I took my dad's) and are a perfectly close couple but they've never really wanted all the fuss of it in the past. I still however stick up massively for the right to marry because even though I don't plan to, it's sour not to have any option, even if I wanted to, especially when it means a hell of alot to many people in a very similar situation to myself.

As was previously said though, unless it was just slip of the tongue or bad wording, I don't see sexuality as a choice. Marriage however, hell yeah, no one has to do that, but they should have the option.

[biosynth]

i dont see why the government should have a say in marriage, a church ceremony or just a state of mind, at all they should just do civil paperwork for rights and inheritance for anyone who asks and leaves marriage to individuals.

[TwistyRainbow]

It was terribly bad wording. I meant to say that, besides actually being gay (which isn't a choice), everything else IS a choice.

Edit: And the reason I said marriage is a choice is because, should gay marriage become widely accepted (at least in the US) I'm sure the 'family values' hyper-homophobic groups will find some way to say "hey, not all LGBT people want to get married, so we shouldn't let any of them get married!" After all, they've been saying same-sex marriage 'defiles' the institution of marriage as defined by Christianity - which, by the way, not all LGBT or straight couples practice - and yet the divorce rate here is very high, something like 50%. In a different thread, Redstate talked about how hypocrisy is common in Federal government (which is true). But it's also common within any kind of hate group.

[Austin]

Actually I just read it wrong your wording was fine lol.

[ANightDude]

Originally Posted by TwistyRainbow

It was terribly bad wording. I meant to say that, besides actually being gay (which isn't a choice), everything else IS a choice.

Edit: And the reason I said marriage is a choice is because, should gay marriage become widely accepted (at least in the US) I'm sure the 'family values' hyper-homophobic groups will find some way to say "hey, not all LGBT people want to get married, so we shouldn't let any of them get married!" After all, they've been saying same-sex marriage 'defiles' the institution of marriage as defined by Christianity - which, by the way, not all LGBT or straight couples practice - and yet the divorce rate here is very high, something like 50%. In a different thread, Redstate talked about how hypocrisy is common in Federal government (which is true). But it's also common within any kind of hate group.

Well if SSM is legalized through, let's say, the Supreme Court, they can fight all they want, but there isn't any going back on it unless they rule the opposite on the same case (which is not going to happen, chances are). They'll kick, scream, and fight, but just like a kid, when they realize they aren't getting what they want, they'll eventually shut up and accept it.

As for the marriage thing, it's all a personal choice for the marriage, yeah, but there are gay couples out there who don't see at as something "just to do", but an honest, real ceremony that they'd kill for. It's just about helping out your fellow LGBT community.

There is no such thing as "gay marriage". There is such a thing as marriage and whether or not the government decides it wants to let gays be allowed to marry or whether it wants to discriminate against homosexuals and restrict marriage to heterosexual couples.

I don't care what we call it, but I recognize that my relationship with my partner has just as much dignity as the next heterosexual couple's and I deserve equal treatment by the government. We can call it civil union, domestic partnership, or marriage (which is not a Christian, Jewish, or Muslim institution), but I deserve (as do you) to be able to get exactly what a heterosexual couple can get...all rights and titles included. Otherwise, my Constitutional rights as a citizen (as well as all you other American gays) are in a state of perpetual violation by the United States government and the government of the State of Texas. The fourteenth amendment says,

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Since the Supreme Court has already identified marriage as a "fundamental right", the 14th amendment encompasses the right to marry.

It doesn't really matter if you ever want to get married or not, but you should care that your rights are being violated by not having the option to get married. Personally, I do want to get married. I would probably be married right now if I was allowed to be. The fact that I can't get married is an injury inflicted on me unconstitutionally by the government.

[Veronica]

Originally Posted by TwistyRainbow

And the reason I said marriage is a choice is because, should gay marriage become widely accepted (at least in the US) I'm sure the 'family values' hyper-homophobic groups will find some way to say "hey, not all LGBT people want to get married, so we shouldn't let any of them get married!" After all, they've been saying same-sex marriage 'defiles' the institution of marriage as defined by Christianity - which, by the way, not all LGBT or straight couples practice - and yet the divorce rate here is very high, something like 50%. In a different thread, Redstate talked about how hypocrisy is common in Federal government (which is true). But it's also common within any kind of hate group.

Well, personally I am a secular humanist, so I believe in equal rights for everyone. Marriage is of course not a Christian institution, while they obviously have a Christian marriage tradition like any other religion and culture. However in a free society the legal marriage contract has nothing to do with your life-philosophy. So obviously—to me at least—two people of any kind can marry without that being anyone's business. Also it is their choice not to marry either obviously. I don't really want to get married, but I wouldn't refuse to if my partner wanted to.

Same-sex marriages are legal where I live, but it wasn't many years ago that happened. Some people protested, and protested loudly, including people in my family. I remember having a heated discussion with my mother about it. I think it is sad that people with one belief impose their views on others, especially when they themselves never have had to face such injustice.

Sorry for the rant. These issues gets me worked up

[TwistyRainbow]

Heh don't worry about it. This is a hot-button issue, so it's natural that it would inspire 'enthusiastic' reactions. And I'm not saying marriage is just something 'to do,' nor is it a uniquely monotheistic institution. The thing is, here, in the US, every group that IS against marriage equality claims it is destroying Christian values, which is why I talked about that.
And any kind of 'couple bonding,' be it a civil union, 'ceremonial' marriage, or common-law marriage, is definitely a great, wonderful thing that everybody should be able to do. The thing is, not everybody can. To be specific, there are several US states where marriage equality cannot be achieved in the foreseeable future because referendums have been passed denying LGBT people their 14th amendment rights - I don't understand why, these people could just go to Canada or one of the states that do have marriage equality, so it's kind of like putting a wall around your house and leaving the back gate open. Despite the Supreme Court's decision, it will certainly take a very large amount of time to overturn these referendums and establish marriage equality. Like I said, I'd be sublimely happy to marry my boyfriend (who is lurking out there somewhere) should he want to, but I'd be equally happy just being with him. I do admit, though, that because I am not currently in a relationship, I might not feel as passionately about this as I might when I do meet Mr. Right.

[Veronica]

This issue doesn't affect me personally, and likely wont, but it still gets me worked up. But I'm generally surrounded by enlightened people, so we get worked up about it together

The battle is won here, but certainly not everywhere. My organisation is one that works for this, also in the US.

... and of course it does go against Christian values. It is hard to ignore that, and I believe Christians are in their full right to define their own values. But their values applies to them, not everyone. Which is why I can't for the life of me understand why they want to enforce their own values upon society. Gay marriage doesn't harm anyone, so why is it bad? I don't buy the argument for a second that it is bad for children.

[TwistyRainbow]

While it is certainly true that the Bible does not endorse marriage equality, keep in mind it was written over 1000 years ago, at a time when the ideas endorsed by even the stanchest modern conservatives would seem heretical. I'm not saying the Bible is outdated or anything like that. What I'm saying is that we do not live in those times anymore. We live in a time where equal rights are, in theory if not always in practice, extended to all - and I've only traveled to Canada, so I can't speak for other countries besides the US - regardless of ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic class, and gender. Extending these equal rights to people of all sexual orientations actually, as has been said above, goes against the Constitution and is a rather 'un-American' thing to do, regardless of the values of a percentage of citizens.

As a sidenote, I traveled to NYC for a few days last week, and saw a couple get married at the gazebo outside Belvedere Castle in Central Park. If I do get married, that is the one thing I'd absolutely want, to be married at that gazebo. The bf could have Rebecca Black and Justin Beiber singing "Friday" and "Baby," so long as it was at that gazebo.

[Veronica]

Well, you don't need to go a 1000 years back. A few decades will do. In truth the western world is slowly becoming more enlightened (in lack of a better word) and lets not kid ourselves, this is very recent development, and much is left to be accomplished. I'm not well informed on this, but I believe some Asian cultures are much better on some of these issues.

[Olive]

You folks should come join me in Iowa... Same-sex marriage is legal here

[Emberstone]

Originally Posted by TwistyRainbow

Ok, so politically I'm a moderate liberal, and religiously I'm a 'spiritual agnostic,' so I never, even before I realized I was gay, had any problems with same-sex marriage. Why should I care what other people do if it doesn't affect me? Well anyway, since coming out, I guess my viewpoint has changed slightly. I obviously still support same-sex marriage with a great depth of conviction, but as far as me having one... I don't know. Maybe it's because the word 'marriage' conjures up visions of crazy amounts of stress, lots of familial friction, and my sister breaking a 300-year old crystal chandelier with her wedding bouquet (true story). The way I look at it, for me, I don't need a piece of paper or an afternoon-long ceremony to be with someone for the rest of my life. I'd be perfectly happy getting a civil union (so long as spousal rights come with that also) or being in a domestic partnership. Don't get me wrong, if my bf/whatever we decide to call ourselves wants to go down the aisle, I'd love to do nothing more because it's what he wants. I'd even wear a garter (not the dress, I don't have the ass for a dress :P)! I guess what I'm saying is that, like having no sex or lots of sex outside of a committed relationship, or wearing fluorescent pink hot pants with a bullseye on the back (which would be a GREAT fashion choice for your bf when he meets your family at Xmas), marriage is a choice, one of those things about being gay (besides actually being gay, of course) that you can choose to do or not do. Just as, one day, we will hopefully gain the right to marry whatever adult we want, we will also gain the right to choose *not* to marry that adult; otherwise, marriage is no longer a right.

*cackles and rubs hands together malevolently* we will pass a law requring you to get married... you have just as much of a patriotic duty to be unhappy as the rest of the married population... *cackles and scampers off*

[Just Passing]

I've been feeling like this lately too. The idea of marriage appeals to me, but I'd rather not get married. Not sure why though, I'm just not sure about the idea of marrying a man (though gay marriages are fine). Maybe that's some homophobia on my part though I need to get passed though.

[Elven]

Originally Posted by Austin

Actually I just read it wrong your wording was fine lol.

Oh yeah I did too... fail. =/

[Ianthe]

Originally Posted by Lost in Iowa

You folks should come join me in Iowa... Same-sex marriage is legal here

The only problem is that same-sex couples are still not afforded all the same rights by the federal government, even if a state will endorse the marriage.


Regarding TwistyRainbow's original post: You seem to just be saying that, while you believe that everyone should be allowed to marry, you aren't sure if you want to yourself. I can't imagine why anyone would object to that. Nobody is advocating mandatory marriage for gay people--or anyone else for that matter. Well, at least that's not what marriage equality groups are advocating.