Does GID exist?

[Zontar]

I'm not feeling too well, so I don't particularly have the energy to write a full post on the topic...but is GID really a disorder?

I was originally a staunch proponent of the gender binary, but I'm beginning to wonder if GID is a byproduct of enforcing a sort of tyrannical gender binary. Why do I suspect this all of a sudden? I've been doing reading on other cultures, and maybe it's documentation bias, but what I see in accepting cultures isn't a "dysphoria" but rather atypical gender expression in a unique third gender category. There are indigineous cultures I've read about in America, Italy, African countries, and lots of others with unpronounceable names that seem to relegate cross-gender behavior to a sort of revered, accepted, and positive third category. The "two-spirited" comes to mind.

The question I'm basically asking is, if our culture wasn't so damn hostile to cross-gender behavior, would gender dysphoria even exist? Would people we call transsexual today eschew physical transition for adopting the mannerisms, sexual identity, and clothing they prefer from each sex in their own unique identity?

That's not to invalidate anybody's feelings about being transgendered, though. I actually would like to hear your input on this...would you feel any different in a fully accepting society?

[Owen]

Science has shown that the brains of transsexuals are structurally more similar to the brains of cisgenders of their true gender than the brains of cisgenders of their birth gender. For that reason, I don't think any amount of gender deconstruction will completely get rid of gender dysphoria. However, since gender is really a spectrum (just like sexuality), I think that a strongly enforced gender binary pushes some people who are close to the ends of the scale and who otherwise might be okay with the labels of "male" and "female" to consider themselves as something other than cisgender because the labels are so strictly defined. If the "male" only entailed "has a penis", rather than, "short hair, assertive, dominant, aloof, emotionally apathetic, tough, etc.", and if female only entailed "has a vagina", rather than "long hair, passive, vain, determined to please her man, emotional, dainty, etc.", I think there would be fewer people identifying as anything other than "male" and "female". I know I fall into that category.

[AngelicDemonic]

I cannot possibly view it as a disorder. They're the opposite gender, there's nothing wrong with that. Making it disordered still leaves the implication that "reparitive" therapies could still work (think ex-gay, not transitioning which is the "reccomended therapy"

I see no difference between transitioning as I do someone getting a boobjob, or taking penis enlargment pills. It's your body, be happy with it.

[Mogget]

Just because something is a byproduct of the culture it exists in rather than in the biology of the people it exists in doesn't make it not real. All mental illness has a cultural component. This becomes significant when Western-trained psychologists attempt to help people from other cultures. They run against mental illnesses and symptom patterns they've never heard of and attempt to categorize them by the mental illnesses they're familiar with. Anorexia became more common in Hong Kong as more people learned about it. Culture is as real as biology, and models that ascribe reality only to the purely physical are inadequate to cover the scope of human experience.

[Zontar]

Originally Posted by Liam

Just because something is a byproduct of the culture it exists in rather than in the biology of the people it exists in doesn't make it not real. All mental illness has a cultural component. This becomes significant when Western-trained psychologists attempt to help people from other cultures. They run against mental illnesses and symptom patterns they've never heard of and attempt to categorize them by the mental illnesses they're familiar with. Anorexia became more common in Hong Kong as more people learned about it. Culture is as real as biology, and models that ascribe reality only to the purely physical are inadequate to cover the scope of human experience.

You've pretty much summed up the point of my open question. The distress itself is certanly real, you can't deny that, but the question is, does it have to exist? I know anorexia nervosa certainly doesn't have to exist, but, yet it does.

If we accepted people for who they were instead of shoe-horning them into separate categories, would distress over one's body even still exist? Is the "cure" to GID really just ending transgender hate and allowing people to make their own gender?

[maverick]

Well, it's not just about gender conformity and the mannerisms/clothing/etc.. that come with one's innate gender, it's (partially) about "crossed wires" between your brain and your body.

I mean, when I look into the mirror, because my brain - my consciousness - is masculine, I expect to see a male form. Every single time. Yes, I've come to terms that I have a female body, and I understand that nothing short of self mutilation will change that. I'm semi-okay with the switch-up at this point because I've become much more self-accepting. But I think even if I did take hormones and got top surgery, there is always going to be some part of my brain that balks at seeing myself in the mirror because it doesn't match up with what my brain expects to see.

When I don't, there is always a moment of disorientation, like I'm looking at someone else in the mirror.

The one thing I've had a hard time convincing people is that gender dysphoria has nothing to do with hating my body - it's not regular "self-consciousness" that many women go through during puberty (although my mother tried to convince herself that it was). For a womanly figure, mine ain't half bad, and I'm not self-conscious about it. It just doesn't feel like my body.

The question I'm basically asking is, if our culture wasn't so damn hostile to cross-gender behavior, would gender dysphoria even exist? Would people we call transsexual today eschew physical transition for adopting the mannerisms, sexual identity, and clothing they prefer from each sex in their own unique identity?

I think if our culture wasn't so hostile to crossgender behavior, I think a lot of people who now identify as transsexual would probably just identify as transgendered or genderqueer; however, the severest cases of transsexuality in essence DO reinforce the gender binary, at least on a biological level. For some transsexuals, it don't matter how many pretty dresses they get to wear (or vice versa) they still want to lose the genitalia and won't be happy 'til they do. I don't count myself in that crowd.

For me personally, I would feel differently in a fully accepting society, but to be honest, I don't encounter a lot of harassment in my day to day life either, at least not by colleagues, friends, family, and clergy. I've worn masculine clothing for almost a year now and I've had people question my sexuality (indirectly), but I've never had anyone accuse me of crossdressing or approach me like it was something bad, even though I blatantly do it every single day.

(Note: I'm talking about people I know, not people on the street. I have faced discrimination from strangers before.)

I feel like even if I walked into work in a suit and tie, people probably wouldn't disapprove, at least to my face. As it is I go to work in ball caps, cargo jeans, and boots, and no one says anything.

I act like a young man, and that's basically the way I'm treated.

Is the shoe a completely different fit for MtFs? You bet your ass. Gay guys and male-bodied transsexuals have and probably always will bear the brunt of overt discrimination. And I can tell you if I was a MtF who just showed up to work in a skirt instead of jeans, you'd be reading a totally different post right now.

But that's not just homophobia, it's sexism, too. Because butch women get a pass for emulating men, while gay men and MtFs are seen as inferior for emulating women.

[kiersten]

Yep, GID absolutely exists. From Wikipedia:

Gender identity disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Hitchhiker]

I don't think of it as a mental disorder, more of like a... body disorder? Nothing wrong with the mind, just the body.
if that makes sense?

[djt820]

Originally Posted by kiersten

Yep, GID absolutely exists. From Wikipedia:

Gender identity disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So it MUST be absolute truth if it's from Wikipedia!

[Emberstone]

people assume that the word 'disorder' always has to be a negative. GID in essence is a recognition that a person's physical gender does not match their emotional and mental gender. the disorder is the disconnect between who a person is, and what their body says they are. True psychatrists and psychologist view the emotional/mentally recognized gender as a reflection of who a person is, where as hack doctors (like bachmann-swishier-than-liberache) tend to put emphasis on physical gender.

the disorder aspect is generally accepted to be the physical gender, not the emotional/mental gender. The mind and emotions are the person, not their physical body.

[kiersten]

Originally Posted by djt820

So it MUST be absolute truth if it's from Wikipedia!

Oh, I know in no way is Wikipedia the absolute truth, but that there was an entry there for GID generally says to me that, yes, it does indeed exist. Of course, I'm living with it daily, so I don't need Wikipedia to tell me what I already know... LOL!

[SagaciousNJ]

Originally Posted by Emberstone

people assume that the word 'disorder' always has to be a negative. GID in essence is a recognition that a person's physical gender does not match their emotional and mental gender. the disorder is the disconnect between who a person is, and what their body says they are. True psychatrists and psychologist view the emotional/mentally recognized gender as a reflection of who a person is, where as hack doctors (like bachmann-swishier-than-liberache) tend to put emphasis on physical gender.

the disorder aspect is generally accepted to be the physical gender, not the emotional/mental gender. The mind and emotions are the person, not their physical body.

This

As Emberstone said, the "disorder" lies in the fact that One's Body and gross physiology disagrees with their Psychology and Neurophysiological outlook. Generally one expects those things to be "in order" and mutual agreement. The Medical establishment respects this view by classifying Gender Identity Disorder or Gender Dysphoria as an Axis 3 Medical condition and not a Mental dysfunction or Personality Defect in the DSM 4.

Humane and effective therapy generally involves bringing the body into line with the mentality. Any "acceptance" therapy would involve helping a patient to accept the current limits and imperfections of medical science in changing the physical genders, allowing a trans-person to express their true gender identity as fully as possible while in a body that struggles against them.

Only quacks and Backward religiously motivated zealots attempt to practice "gender conversion therapy" or (whatever they call it these days), which often culminates in psychological abuse, emotional rejection and new mental disorders.

[Haberdasher]

But that's not just homophobia, it's sexism, too. Because butch women get a pass for emulating men, while gay men and MtFs are seen as inferior for emulating women.

Gay men and MtFs are seen as inferior for their cross-gender expression because there hasn't been a campaign to allow them greater freedom of expression. Women do not experience this as strongly because feminism has expanded the gender expression available to women. Women emulating men was once just as laughable and dangerous. The notion of femininity being "inferior" is a very small part of the equation if it factors at all.

As for "GID", I could give a very long post about the history of the condition and how it wound up in the DSM (very suspicious activity surrounding that) but ultimately SagaciousNJ has it right and it saves you all a depressing history lesson.

As to the OP's original query, there are butch lesbian trans women and effeminate gay trans men who do drag... gender expression has barely any connection to gender identity really. Would there be fewer trans identified individuals? Possibly, maybe even probably, but it doesn't really account for all trans people and it is pointless, especially as a cis person, to go about speculating whether an individual is a "true transsexual"... there was more than enough of that in the gender clinics.

[katherineM2F]

Of course GID exists. The real problem we're having is with trying to explain to people that GID is not the condition. It's but one symptom of the biological condition of transsexualism, and exhibits differently in each transsexual.

It's an understandable confusion, seeing as many of those experiencing this condition don't even really get it. If you treat the GID symptom with hormones, surgeries, social reconditioning, etc.. it will eventually subside. Yet no matter how much physical and mental change is accomplished, one can never 100% become the opposite sex. This means a transsexual will always suffer from transsexualism, until the day they die (despite what many who have fully transitioned would have you believe).

[Aya McCabre]

It's worth mentioning that dysmorphia (the category into which GID falls (or used to fall?)) exists in more forms than this. People are convinced that they are disfigured when they're not. People have a body image that tells them they should be an amputee. GID is simply the one that has an organised movement behind it, probably because it's the easiest to articulate in plausible terms. Tell a doctor your gender is wrong and they'll listen to you. Tell a doctor it's wrong that you have two legs and you won't like the way you're treated.
Given that, it's probably fair to say that they dysmorphia aspect would exist no matter what. There is no cultural backing for people to think they should have fewer limbs, but people still independently come to that conclusion. It's only recently with the internet that these people knew that they were no alone. So even without all the culture it is likely that people would feel this way about their bodies.
The cultural aspect is a whole other thing. There is definitely room for improvement there. People are less likely to feel that they need extensive surgery etc if there is a category (recognised by society) that they can fit into without it. (Incidentally, the new standard of care for transgendered patients recognises this and makes it easy to access parts of the transition process without having to have all or nothing.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that body dysmorphia in the form of believing that your body should show different sexual characteristics from what it does would exist no matter what, but the social implications of that are constructed.

[seeksanctuary]

I say yes, it does.

While I can understand that people are opponents of the gender binary... I myself think that gender should be seen as a spectrum... the fact of the matter is that some people ARE staunchly male and some people ARE staunchly female. There are a great deal of people who have no gender, identify as some other gender, identify as both, etc, but some people simply identify as male or female. Period.

So if those people find themselves in the body opposite of what they feel they should be, then it's reasonable that SOME of them might be deeply distressed. Not all transsexual people have GID; I have met a few who have found peace with their bodies and are okay with not having hormones or surgery. But I have also met people who find it near impossible to function in normal society as they are, and that to me IS a disorder. I myself have GID. And the funny part? I was not raised in a typical "boys do this girls do that" household; cross-gender behaviors were fine by my mother. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

Even if cross-gender behaviors were accepted... though if there was no gender binary, there would be no such thing as cross-gender behaviors... GID would still exist. It would still exist because not everyone is comfortable in the body they were born in, and not everyone can accept having breasts when they feel they shouldn't or having a penis when they feel they should have a vagina.

If cross-gender behaviors were accepted, I would have felt safer growing up. I would have felt that I could have come out sooner and gotten the help I needed before puberty set in. I could have had the childhood I should have had. However, that would not have ended the distress, anguish and confusion I felt over being transsexual and realizing my body wasn't what it should be, and having to fight to surgically and hormonally correct my body. Because I would have to do that, accepting society or not; an accepting society does not make boobs go away or give me correct testosterone levels.

I don't think all transgender and transsexual people should be labeled as having GID. Some don't, as I said before, and some do. I think GID stems from being trans*, sort of like how PTSD stems from trauma... many anti-trans people seem to think that GID causes someone to be trans*, but from what I can tell, it's just another "symptom". (Or rather, a collection of symptoms coupled with an individual's reaction to said symptoms.) If a person has those symptoms, they should be diagnosed and medically treated. Meaning hormones and surgery, as the individual sees fit. At least then GID would be a useful label.

Right now, it's just not that useful, from what I can see... but it DOES exist. Insurances companies and doctors just need to accept it as the result of a medical condition and treat it as such, rather than a "mental disease" or a "choice".

EDIT;;

I see no difference between transitioning as I do someone getting a boobjob, or taking penis enlargment pills. It's your body, be happy with it.

There is one huge problem with that... Boob jobs and penis enlargement pills are "cosmetic". SRS and HRT, for transsexuals, is usually not "cosmetic" but necessary and life-saving surgery. There is a reason that suicide within the trans* community runs so high. The problem is that most insurances companies believe this... that SRS and HRT are the same as boob jobs and such, and that they're not necessary for someone to be happy with their bodies. That's just not the case.

[Sheyceli]

I don't really have a huge argument about this. Well, maybe I do, but what others have said might be similar to my opinion. So, just to throw my two cents in there, I think it's ridiculous that being transgendered means that you have a disorder and all of these mental problems. Honestly, and I may seem ignorant here, so please excuse me if I do, because I don't 100% understand everything that's being said, but I think it's about as rude and insensitive as when somebody says that being gay is a disease or disorder that needs to be "cured". So you're not happy with being male/female. So you want to be the other gender. What is wrong with that?

[StarofMiyu]

It's really hard to understand or explain, For people like us our trans'ness is a problem in the sense that it's not healthy for us. It's not a problem in the sense that it's something wrong with our innate being, we're born like this and can't help the fact that we're trans.