Straight descimination in a gay class?

[J Snow]

So I'm currently in the class "Introduction to Queer Studies," and as you would expect the professor is gay. Well if I had to guess I'd say about 1/3 of the class is also LGBTQ. I know for sure two of the guys are gay, and probably over half the class is straight women. One thing I've found odd, is instead of referring to the LGBT community he just says, "us" or "we" which I have found kind of odd since the majority of the class is straight.

What's more, we just got back some papers today. The assignment was a "multiple identities paper" where we were supposed to discuss our different social identities such as race, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, etc. Well I got a 20/20. I found the assignment really easy in fact. I wrote four pages and could have easily wrote more talking about my confusion with gender identity, my sexual orientation, coming out experience, and conflicts with going to Catholic school and having very conservative parents.

Well, a girl that I've become friends with in the class got a C on the paper. I know she's a hard working student, and likely talked about everything I did, yet her paper was only about half as long because... well she's white, straight, and from a middle class family. She simply didn't have the hardships or complications to write about that I did, still she was totally honest. It made me realize that if I was straight my paper would have been just like hers.

He even underlined and said like "yes" next to stuff where I discussed my religious and social opinions. Suddenly I felt like I only got an A because he liked my opinions and cause I'm gay. I mean, if somebody wrote for their religious beliefs, "I believe the bible is the literal word of God and isn't open to interpretation," I would disagree with them, but I don't think they should be punished for their opinions.

Don't get me wrong, this girl is a huge supporter of gay rights, which is kind of where I feel there's a problem. She says she feels like she's being reverse discriminated in the class. That's a problem to me. If someone is a total homophobe (and there is at least one in the class) then they probably shouldn't be in the class anyway, but if someone took the class to help gay rights and learn about the LGBT community shouldn't they feel welcome?

Thoughts?

Edit: Also, she said the professor made a claim that gay parents are better then straight parents. I never heard this, but if so it also seems hypocritical. Isn't the point of such a class to teach equality instead of superiority?

[maverick]

Sounds like reverse discrimination to me.

Unfortunately, one of the things I learned at university is that the "subversive liberal professor" stereotype is an all-too-common reality, which is one of the reasons conservatives get so scared of "in-school indoctrination". There are also subversive conservative professors, but they are less common because conservatives are less likely to go into education than progressives.

Liberals always catch shit for "indoctrinating the children" simply because they're the group that introduces new, controversial ideas and concepts. Conservatives tend towards the mathematics, engineering, history, science and business fields. These are not dynamic concepts that encourage change, they are fairly static and all change is done under extremely controlled conditions.

Also, she said the professor made a claim that gay parents are better then straight parents.

There was a study last year that said lesbians were higher-performing parents than any other parental unit, gay or straight: Study: Children of Lesbians May Do Better Than Their Peers

[J Snow]

I did find it odd that he always referred to the community as "we" and "us" but I never really saw a problem until she pointed it out to me. Now I'm upset because this is my favorite class and I'm worried I won't enjoy it as much now that I've got all this on my mind...

[Kidd]

I don't think it's reverse discrimination. She turned in a paper that was half as long as yours, and then you guys are surprised that she got a lower grade? You can speak from experience and she can't. That isn't discrimination, that's just the way it is.

Unfortunately, one of the things I learned at university is that the "subversive liberal professor" stereotype is an all-too-common reality, which is one of the reasons conservatives get so scared of "in-school indoctrination".

This is so true too. Last year I had a blatantly anti-theist philosophy professor and I was actually pretty stunned at how over-the-top he could be sometimes. In the last three years I've had only one professor that I would call conservative, and he was just completely nuts.

[J Snow]

Kidd, I realize she didn't have as much to write, but when you ask students to write about their experience with their sexual orientation and one is straight and on is gay, wouldn't you expect the gay student to have more to say? I don't think its intentional discrimination, but it doesn't really seem fair either...

[maverick]

Nah, don't let it get you down, just remember to take this guy with a grain of salt, even call him out on any overt heterophobia if he gives you the opportunity and if you're feeling particularly ballsy that day.

[zeratul]

Originally Posted by maverick

Conservatives tend towards the mathematics, engineering, history, science and business fields. These are not dynamic concepts that encourage change, they are fairly

This statement is kind of false. There are lots of opportunity to make discoveries, to make changes, to challenge mistakes and to make rivals in the world of mathematics, engineering, history, science, and business fields. These are in fact dynamic concepts and you can argue for their change by writing your own thesis.

Also to the OP, I do not feel that this is reverse discrimination. If you strip away the fact that the people are gay or straight in class, you will then see that when you are writing a paper, there are required information to substantiate the topics at hand. These required information came to you and other gay people easily due to your unique perspectives and your life experiences. For these straight, white, female students of middle class income families, they can obtain the data and information from research, and they can experience it personally through anthropological methods, i.e. pretend to come out as lesbians, and experience the reactions of families, churches, etc. Anthropologists live the life of the culture they are studying, you know, before they can conclude anything and publish papers.

[maverick]

This statement is kind of false. There are lots of opportunity to make discoveries, to make changes, to challenge mistakes and to make rivals in the world of mathematics, engineering, history, science, and business fields. These are in fact dynamic concepts and you can argue for their change by writing your own thesis.

Well, it may be a generalization, but in my personal experience the "old guard" of those fields is much more resistant to change than in the liberal arts fields. I just feel like in the fields I listed, you need a lot more objective data to get the consensus of your peers (in math you need proofs, in business you need models, etc...), whereas in the liberal arts, simply being persuasive on a social level is enough and the measurement of quality of new ideas is much more subjective.

Which is why we get theater professors doing plays about gay Jesus, and society can't decide whether it's offensive or not. Its reaction is all based on personal opinion, not facts.

[J Snow]

Maverick, thanks for posting that picture of my kicking Grenn's ass. I'm kind of conflicted actually. Part of me thinks what he's doing is deserving because there really is an ignorant homophobic idiot in the class. I just think its strange that someone who is a big supporter of gay rights and would say she doesn't feel comfortable the way he runs the class.

Zeratul, first of all thanks for keeping us all safe from the Zerg. Secondly, I know, I'm just conflicted cause I feel I DID have a huge advantage being LGBT and for holding opinions he agreed with. I suppose there's no reason she couldn't have wrote more about sexual orientation even though she's straight. But like for me when I wrote about my race I was just like, "well I"m white. I don't really care about it. I feel like being white isn't really so much of a cultural identity as a lack of one" and I feel like that's all I would have really said about myself if I was straight.

Keep in mind, the point wasn't to talk about HOW you feel about sexual orientation, it was to talk about your own identities.

[Lychee]

Honestly, I do feel that there is often straight discrimination in such classes. But it's not altogether intentional - I major in gender, sexuality and culture, and in our small group discussions, which we are graded on, we pretty much always have to talk about personal experiences, and obviously, if you are a white, straight male, then you have to think a lot harder about things like this than if you are an Asian lesbian, for example.

However, I think that when taking a class like 'Intro to Queer studies', you must be interested in such things, and therefore are more willing to think about your experiences from another perspective. As a straight, white female, I do find that personal reflections don't come as easily to me as it does to other people, but that's the trade-off of taking such a class. Your friend could easily have written a paper about what it meant to be an Ally, to be someone who, while straight, chooses to think about other identities, etc. Because that is actually quite a large source of information. By choosing to take the class, she has already distanced herself from the stereotypical 'straight white female' identity, and that could easily be used for self-examination purposes.

[Zontar]

They actually have gay classes?

When did this come about?

[TheRoof]

This is kind of off topic, but in my personal experience, it always helps to win the favor of professor or TA. I had this one class where the TA and I got along really well, and I got good grades on almost all assignments. Right now I'm stuck with this awful TA that sorta doesn't get along with me (idk why but I can totally tell when I'm talking to her that she doesn't like me for some reason) and I'm getting crap grades on assignments.
So yea, in my experience, there's obviously going to be a favoritism in grading, especially when the assignments or tests are writing. And obviously if it's mult choice type, then it would be hard to discriminate.

[ukeye]

It sounds like you knew more about the subject matter, given your experience. Its got nothing to do about being gay or straight.. the professor is probably passionate, hence his 'us' and 'we' behaviour.

You obviously had dealt with the subject matter first hand. She could have written a better paper if she had researched. Its like, I guess if a shrinks kid is studying to be a psychologist and their parents are shrinks.. they will probably do better than their peers.. because they have some conditioning, no?

I had a similar instance where a gay friend told me that he didn't go to a certain end of town because it was 'so heterosexual'. Unfortunately I kind of agreed with him, and it seems to be the way it is.

I think you got the better grade due to your in depth analysis of social/religious issues which shows in itself a deeper thought process. You are there to learn, and maybe your friend who got a C will have her mind opened more in the class now. Lecturers/professors are people just like you and I, and they are going to be biased.. and really its a reflection of the world at large.. you are always going to be put in some sort of pecking order in the working world. .its how capitalism works.

[J Snow]

I agree Ukeye, I just find it kind of hypocritical. We had a debate in the class about if our country was meritocracy or not. Basically the point was to show us that it is not. Which is to say that people have advantages for success over one another as a result of those same social identities. Then the irony is that in his own social identities paper he had the reverse effect of the norm. I feel part of a social experiment or something.

[alan t]

I don't think it's necessarily discrimination. Suppose you take a math class. Then everyone gets the same exam and gets graded on how well they do. Some students may have seen the material in a previous class already and don't have to put in much effort, some may not and therefore have to study much harder. Thats not unfair - you get graded on the results not on how easy it was for you to do it.

[TheRoof]

Originally Posted by alan t

I don't think it's necessarily discrimination. Suppose you take a math class. Then everyone gets the same exam and gets graded on how well they do. Some students may have seen the material in a previous class already and don't have to put in much effort, some may not and therefore have to study much harder. Thats not unfair - you get graded on the results not on how easy it was for you to do it.

Math is graded differently than writing about one's social experiences. Math is logical and quantitative so obviously there's going to be a correct answer or incorrect answer. However, writing about gender roles, sexual orientation, multiple identities...etc, that's biased (in point of view of both writer and the reader) and ambiguous and it really depends on one's personal experience. And you can't force yourself to make up the social and gender identities you've never experienced. On the other hand, for math, you can always memorize and practice and perfect your skills. It's just two completely different things. So I think comparing math with this is kind of a poor example.

[Mogget]

What's this? An opportunity for Liam to wax at length about obscure topics? It must be seized! Note: tl;dr summary at the bottom.

Okay, in American culture there's a normalization of whiteness, heterosexuality, masculinity, upper-middle-class status, able-bodied status, Christianity (provided you aren't too Christian), and (depending on the subculture) either moderate liberalism or moderate conservatism. This normalization has an interesting effect: it denies not only the possibility of non-normative statuses, but also the possibility of any of the normative statuses being an identity.

Let's explore the first. Being white, straight, upper-middle-class, male, and Christian are assumed defaults. A person who lacks any of these qualities is somehow less of a person, their opinions, thoughts, feelings, ideas, and lives are less valid than someone possessing these qualities. In my own field of religious studies there's an entire movement called liberation theology that seeks to address this problem via the redemptive power of Jesus Christ (or God in Jewish and Islamic liberation theology, though the movement is predominantly Christian). Liberation theology says that these marginalized statuses will be (and are being) delivered from their oppression by God. It studies the dynamics of power from a theological perspective.

Liberation theology also proclaims that these marginalized statuses don't have to negative, they can be asserted as identities. That is, they can define a person positively, as well as negative. People can find value in their marginalized status, they can see how their minority status shaped them into the worthwhile and valid person that they are.

And now we come to the downside for the normative status. Because they are not born of oppression, liberation theology (and its secular sister movements) haven't shown the people who hold them that they can also be identities. Indeed, there's a tendency to frown on people who do seize normative statuses as identities, seeing them as using their power to oppress. We see this in the statements (which are perfectly valid) that "every month is white history month," "every week is straight pride week."

This is further strengthened by a kyriarchy that insists there is nothing special about holding normative status. How can "white" be a cultural identity when it has no distinguishing features from culture as a whole? Attempts to discern a culture or identity from a normative status is discouraged as pointless, as implying that the status is not universal.

So people holding normative statuses get it from both ends. The kyriarchy prevents them from realizing that they have their own culture that is distinct from the culture (which is actually not one culture but an aggregate of many cultures) of the whole group, while social justice movements discourage claiming "oppressor" status as an identity.

Being a social justice advocate, my tendency is to blame the kyriarchy for this more than the social justice movement. A social conservative would doubtless place the greater blame on social justice.

---------- Post added 3rd Oct 2011 at 09:10 PM ----------

tl;dr people with normative statuses have identities, but they are discouraged from realizing this both by the dominant culture and by social justice movements.

[midwestgirl89]

This is interesting and I'm not sure if it was discrimination or not. It does sound like your teacher needs to open his mind more and allow students to write their own stories without prejudging. Was there a page requirement for your assignment? If so, that may be why she got a lower grade than you.

If a gay, African American, Jewish man were to write a paper on the same topic that you were assigned, I'm sure he would have a lot to discuss regarding sexuality, culture, discrimination, etc. If a straight, white, Christian man were to write the same paper it might be harder for him to come up with what each label means to him and how it effected his sexuality because society teaches him he is normal.

I'm white and I hardly ever reflect on what it means to be white. Your friend (I'm generalizing here) probably has not thought much about what it means to her to be straight because it's seen as the default sexuality.

Maybe your professor wanted her to reflect more on how these different parts of her life work together and she wasn't able to because she has been denied any pride or feeling of different-ness regarding her sexuality/religion. I don't think it's your friend's fault that she couldn't come up with as much information as you. If someone asked me to reflect on what it means to be white I'd be like... good question. I'll get back to you on that. And it'd take me a long time to come up with anything.

I do think it's wrong for your teacher to just assume everyone in the class is part of the LGBT community. He is doing the same thing society does to gay people, assuming everyone is a certain way and making people that are different feel like crap.

Maybe you could talk to your friend about what she wrote and see if there was any page requirement. If you feel like straight people are being discriminated against you could talk to the professor or challenge him when he says "us".

Also the claim that gay parents are better than straight parents isn't a good thing to say in a class. You don't want to alienate straight people.

It isn't cool to discriminate against straight people just like it isn't cool to discriminate against gay people.

---------- Post added 4th Oct 2011 at 01:29 AM ----------

Also, maybe you could check out the "Heterosexual Questionnaire" on google and maybe give it to your friend. It's kind of funny and it helps straight people understand the kind of questions gay people get. It might get her to reflect more on what it means to be straight. Although she might have reflected really well and it could have been your teacher's fault. Anyway, it's funny.

[Cheria]

Originally Posted by Jon Snow

Kidd, I realize she didn't have as much to write, but when you ask students to write about their experience with their sexual orientation and one is straight and on is gay, wouldn't you expect the gay student to have more to say? I don't think its intentional discrimination, but it doesn't really seem fair either...

Well, what exactly were the criticisms that the professor had for her paper?
And just because she doesn't identify with any of those things doesn't mean she had nothing to write about. She knows LGBT people, she has interactions with them; she could have written about how her straight identity affects her relationships with them.
She could have written about her privileges as a straight person, there's a LOT of material there. If she had no hardships or complications because of her identities, she could have discussed why not.
No identity is simpler than another. With as broad a topic as this one, you could have written about anything.

[J Snow]

Wow, this thread is really getting more attention then I expected lol.

I agree with JRNY. Math is completely different and I don't think can really be used to compare to this situation.

Liam, I just find this funny because we really have talked about all this stuff in the same class since so much of it has to do with discrimination. I even had to read a paper on white identity in regards to racism and it talked about white people going through stages where they think racism is dead, then they witness racism first hand and feel shame, they deal with the same by conforming and believing that the racism is for good reason and stereotypes are true, working to become and ally, and eventually acknowledging pride in being white. Kind of related and I think there is a lot of truth to it.

Before I started coming out I used to feel the way you described. I felt like I had no culture. Sometimes I actually feel like I to some extent suppress bisexuality because I like being a part of the gay culture. Of course mind games don't do me or anyone else any good.

Midwestgirl, While not being African American, the professor is both gay and Jewish lol. I remember reading the information about the assignment on the syllabus 5 times over because he never mentioned a page requirement on it or in class. It was more or less a list of things you should talk about, and as far as I know one of those situations where its "as long as it takes you to make sure you've got everything in" sort of situations.

---------- Post added 4th Oct 2011 at 12:53 AM ----------

For those curious here's what was said should be included in the paper.

1. Body Identity: identify your physical description. How do you see YOURSELF physically.
2. Social Identities: identify the external cultural norms/social meanings associated with yourself in terms of
physical description, skin color, ―race,‖ ethnicity, nationality, religion, linguistic background, gender, sexual
identity/orientation, ability/disability, socioeconomic class background, age, and any other aspect of your identity
for which you identify and would like to share. Include here your Myers-Briggs Personality Profile. Chart the
trajectory of your coming to consciousness of your and other’s ―race,‖ and other social identities like biological
sex and gender, ethnicity, religion, sexual identity, socioeconomic class, linguistic background, nationality,
ability/disability, and other identities.
3. Moral/Attitudinal/Affective Identity: identify your internal personal values and beliefs, the elements that
comprise your personality and your character, and articulate how they do or do not align with your social identities.
(Do others truly see YOU when they see you, or do they see something/someone else?)
4. Incorporate a description of your experiences as a student in P-12 schools (discuss what school was like for
you generally). Then suggest how your social identities may have affected your understanding of cultural and
individual diversity in schools