I think I'd like a vagina

[Tracy Lord]

So, how's everyone been? Well, I hope.

My journey continues; part of my frustration has been trying to find a label for myself (while consciously trying to avoid labels).

And then I had a dream the other night. What the rest of the world saw was a man. But I'd gotten the operation to change my genitalia from male to female. No hormones, no breasts, just the operation. It was the most pleasant dream I'd ever had. For some reason, it made everything fit. It seems weird, but it fit.

It turns out the Native Americans have a term for people who are some combination of both genders: Two Spirit. I liked that.

[Hexagon]

Awesome. Congrats on completing the next step of your journey

Also: Gender neutral, androgynous and genderfluid and genderqueer.

[Rooni321]

Not to rain on anyone's parade but I wouldn't like this idea spread around because I'm native and from what I've learned that is not true.
Two spirit is supposed to be people who are gay not a combination of both genders.

Unless you heard this from a specific tribe? Not just native americans in general. That's too broad and again its just very general and isn't necessarily true for all of us.

For example;
Its like saying Asians have all one central belief but there's SO many different types of Asian cultures that it wouldn't be an accurate statement.

[Tracy Lord]

Sorry, I got my info on the net, including here: Men as women, women as men: changing ... - Sabine Lang - Google Books

So I thought it was primarily about gender. Can you expand on your understanding of it? I'd like to know more. Thanks...

[Tracy Lord]

Although it does seem the term is proper only to Native Americans? "Bi-gendered" would be the appropriate term for non-NA's?

[Alexandria]

Regarding the original topic - I've had similar dream more than a few times; both appearing and being both genders or completely female. In some ways, the dreams don't happen enough. I particularly enjoy the ultra real intimate dreams...

[cub17]

Originally Posted by Tracy Lord

So, how's everyone been? Well, I hope.

My journey continues; part of my frustration has been trying to find a label for myself (while consciously trying to avoid labels).

And then I had a dream the other night. What the rest of the world saw was a man. But I'd gotten the operation to change my genitalia from male to female. No hormones, no breasts, just the operation. It was the most pleasant dream I'd ever had. For some reason, it made everything fit. It seems weird, but it fit.

It turns out the Native Americans have a term for people who are some combination of both genders: Two Spirit. I liked that.

I much like Two Spirit over Bi-gendered.

I've labeled myself as Two Spirit for quite some time.

I think this is wonderful. Your dream is helping you find your way.

Beautiful, really.

[Rooni321]

Originally Posted by Tracy Lord

Although it does seem the term is proper only to Native Americans? "Bi-gendered" would be the appropriate term for non-NA's?

Its not all native americans though. Maybe some tribes but not all.
It would just be more valid and unoffensive if you gave the specific tribe that the two spirit idea came from that's all.
I know what you're talking about but native american is so general.

[cub17]

Originally Posted by Rooni321

Its not all native americans though. Maybe some tribes but not all.
It would just be more valid and unoffensive if you gave the specific tribe that the two spirit idea came from that's all.
I know what you're talking about but native american is so general.

Amen.



Concerning your earlier statement, I think I read something like that on Wikipedia, where two-spirits generally have different connotation depending on tribes.

In my culture, Chicano, there's a similar situation to I guess some two spirits. Curanderos are usually confirmed bachelors, and theres a subtle hint of homoeroticism.

[Tracy Lord]

Originally Posted by Rooni321

Its not all native americans though. Maybe some tribes but not all.
It would just be more valid and unoffensive if you gave the specific tribe that the two spirit idea came from that's all.
I know what you're talking about but native american is so general.

I'm a little confused as to what the argument is; but, as I said, I'm new to this, so please bear with me. Per Wikipedia, I'm assuming the term is general because of how it developed.

Two-Spirit People (also Two Spirit or Twospirit), is an English term that emerged in 1990 out of the third annual inter-tribal Native American/First Nations gay/lesbian American conference in Winnipeg. It describes Indigenous North Americans who fulfill one of many mixed gender roles found traditionally among many Native Americans and Canadian First Nations indigenous groups. The mixed gender roles encompassed by the term historically included wearing the clothing and performing the work associated with both men and women.

Two-Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd really like to explore this more with anyone who knows more about it.

[person54]

I think what they mean is if you say something is native american then it has a connotation of being true across all the tribes in all parts of the Americas. Maybe there are some really common facts that are true for all Native Americans but with respect to religious traditions, culture, language and understanding of the world, each tribe had a very unique perspective.

While there may have been a specific tribe that used the term two spirit, to many tribes, that same term would have been completely foriegn.

It's the same as trying to make a statement about a cultural tidbit of people that live in New York City but then saying, "So there's people that live in the Americas (Americas=both north and south america) that do x, y, or z"

But I'm not Native American, that's just my understanding of the situation.

[Rooni321]

Originally Posted by person54

I think what they mean is if you say something is native american then it has a connotation of being true across all the tribes in all parts of the Americas. Maybe there are some really common facts that are true for all Native Americans but with respect to religious traditions, culture, language and understanding of the world, each tribe had a very unique perspective.

While there may have been a specific tribe that used the term two spirit, to many tribes, that same term would have been completely foriegn.

It's the same as trying to make a statement about a cultural tidbit of people that live in New York City but then saying, "So there's people that live in the Americas (Americas=both north and south america) that do x, y, or z"

But I'm not Native American, that's just my understanding of the situation.

That is it.

---------- Post added 5th Jan 2012 at 11:22 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Tracy Lord

I'd really like to explore this more with anyone who knows more about it.

Are you Native?

[Tracy Lord]

Maybe it's just the plain text, where it's difficult to sense someone's tone, but you seem a bit combative. Did we get off on the wrong foot? I'm just trying to better understand the idea from people who are more familiar with it. And no, I'm not Native.

[kiersten]

I know EXACTLY how you feel Tracy! I want a vagina quite badly as well. It's been & continues to be hell having the wrong genitals between my legs. I cant be with who I want to be with, I can't even masturbate like a normal girl, it really is intolerable at times. Im already starting to look at the options & financial costs for when I can go have my bottom surgery & FINALLY just be normal down there! For me, I know that I need the hormones, the voice training & everything to finally get myself to match altogether, but everyone's journey is different! I wish you so much luck, sweetie! And it's so good to have you back here on EC too!

[Rooni321]

Originally Posted by Tracy Lord

Maybe it's just the plain text, where it's difficult to sense someone's tone, but you seem a bit combative. Did we get off on the wrong foot? I'm just trying to better understand the idea from people who are more familiar with it. And no, I'm not Native.

Oh excuse me, I don't mean to come off rude. I'm just quick to defend my culture/people from generalizations by people from the outside per say. I understand where you're coming from (and I'm glad you've discovered something about yourself) but as a native myself, seeing misinterpretations or people adopt parts of our beliefs as theirs is...a problem for me I guess.

[Tracy Lord]

OK, but a) I'm not attacking you, I'm actually identifying with you, so there's no need to defend anything. Really. We're on the same team.

b) I posted where I got my info, so I'm still unclear as to what I'm misinterpreting. I'm getting that it's an English term developed by an inter-tribal gathering to describe people who don't fit into traditional gender roles. What do you feel I'm missing here?

[cub17]

Originally Posted by Tracy Lord

OK, but a) I'm not attacking you, I'm actually identifying with you, so there's no need to defend anything. Really. We're on the same team.

b) I posted where I got my info, so I'm still unclear as to what I'm misinterpreting. I'm getting that it's an English term developed by an inter-tribal gathering to describe people who don't fit into traditional gender roles. What do you feel I'm missing here?

It's a question of which tribe uses the word how.

Not all Natives wear feather headresses and dance around a totem pole.

Likewise, not all Natives use the term "two spirit" the same way.

[Rooni321]

Originally Posted by cub17

It's a question of which tribe uses the word how.

Not all Natives wear feather headresses and dance around a totem pole.

Likewise, not all Natives use the term "two spirit" the same way.

Exactly.


And on a separate note from cub:
We're not on the same team with this if you're not Native and adopting Native termonology that you don't even know where it came from. I just think its offensive. I can almost guarantee that you won't understand why I'm defending this but still. Have you been to the reservation that this term comes from? Anything? This is off of Wikipedia! Native culture is a lot deeper than that for your personal use.

[cub17]

Originally Posted by Rooni321

Exactly.


And on a separate note from cub:
We're not on the same team with this if you're not Native and adopting Native termonology that you don't even know where it came from. I just think its offensive. I can almost guarantee that you won't understand why I'm defending this but still. Have you been to the reservation that this term comes from? Anything? This is off of Wikipedia! Native culture is a lot deeper than that for your personal use.

My grandmother is Native Mexican. There is no equivalent term for two spirit in modern language as far I know, although there is a function that fits it entirely. I felt there was no harm in adopting it, seeing as how it seems to fit.

Although if it truly bothers you, I will discern a label that is comfortable for everyone.

[Rooni321]

Originally Posted by cub17

My grandmother is Native Mexican. There is no equivalent term for two spirit in modern language as far I know, although there is a function that fits it entirely. I felt there was no harm in adopting it, seeing as how it seems to fit.

Although if it truly bothers you, I will discern a label that is comfortable for everyone.

It does bother me.
If there is an equivalent that fits you then that would be fantastic. Excuse me if I offended anyone, I hope you all understand why I'm doing this.

Thank you so much.

Lena<3