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Fluid sexuality..basically bisexual?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by mes1995, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. mes1995

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    are people who say they are sexually fluid really just bisexual? ive read about bisexuals saying sometimes they go through periods where they are more attracted to men or women.
     
  2. i could be totally wrong because im gay so sorry if i offend anyone.
    but i think their sexuality is a bit wishy-washy, neither here nor there so they are what you would call fluid. there feelings float and drift with no set pattern.

    being bi, youre there... you like both sexes, so its solid. oh. im not making sense btu im my mind i am.

    maybe that doesnt make sense.
    i hope it does and maybe im even wrong lol.
     
  3. speedboy3

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    It depends on who you ask. I say im bi but there are days when Im more attracted to guys than girls and vice versa so in my mind its basically the same, but if you ask someone else they might think differently.
     
  4. Level75

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    I think it's perfectly compatible to say that sexuality is fluid and still be bisexual. In fact, you could probably be straight or gay and still consider sexuality fluid.

    I consider myself gay and that's what I tell people. There are days though where men just don't seem to do it for me and I might find women more attractive. But those periods are less common and don't last long. So I just believe it'll lead to less confusion if I just say I'm gay.

    Or, for me simply, I can find a bartender girl really hot. But I wouldn't date her.
     
  5. Chip

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    There's some support for orientation fluidity over time, but there's also an awful lot of people who use various words or phrases that serve as a sort of bridge to being able to accept that they are lesbian or gay.

    Very often, as one goes through the five stages of loss, in the "bargaining" stage, the thought process will go (for a girl) like "Well, I like like girls, but I totally see myself ending up with a guy eventually" even though there's little or no objective likelihood that will happen. But it serves as a way of "cushioning" the loss of one's identity as straight so that one can accept, in stages, that one is likely gay. So a lot of these people will identify as bisexual, pansexual, or "fluid" not because they really are, but because they aren't ready to accept that they're fully gay.

    And, of course, there are also plenty who *are* bisexual/pansexual/fluid. But based on my experience, probably more of the former than the latter.
     
  6. Flow

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    I don't know about anyone else, but for me it changes daily. I also feel a lot of people use bisexuality/pansexual just to make it easier for them to accept being gay, but for me that's not the case lol. I like guys and girls, but honestly, in the end, I really want to end up with a woman.. I don't think that makes me straight though LOL.
     
  7. GingerGuy

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    Well, I once read an interview from a guy who acts in gay porn. He doesn't identify himself as straight, gay or bissexual, but simply as sexual. According to him, he simply gets the urge to make love to random people on a regular basis, and instead of repressing himself, he always goes for whomever he's attracted to. Perhaps this is the type of sexuality discussed in this thread. The people who get aroused easily and from all types of genders, and are open enough to act on these thoughts in order to get sex.
     
  8. Chip

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    Meh. I can remember when I claimed that for myself. Now I'm gay :slight_smile: Of course, I'm sure there are some people for whom that's true, but there are also an awful, awful lot of guys who do gay porn on "straight guy goes gay" sites that are gay and in the process of coming to terms with it and coming out. And in a way, I suppose that's a relatively safe way (provided you're comfortable with having your sexual self out there for people to see till the end of time) to explore it.
     
  9. Spatula

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    I'd be curious to hear your story, Chip, because I personally don't know any bi-now-gay-later guys in real life, and I'm rather interested to know how that works. Were you ever attracted to women? Did you just get tired of them, or develop a strong emotional attachment to the queer community?

    Part of the reason for this interest is that it seems like gay guys who identified as bisexual tend to have the most dismissive attitudes towards the ones that actually are, once they start identifying as gay. They end up becoming the Dan Savages and Michael Mustos of the community, and frankly, make the rest of our lives rather difficult.
     
    #9 Spatula, Aug 9, 2012
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  10. Nobodylikesme

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    Well kissing girls that I didnt really love knowing now was nice. But kissing a women I loved was magic. Nooooo guys yet.......:tears:
     
  11. Pret Allez

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    I experience some degree of variance in my attraction, but I am not tempted to call myself fluid. I think that it's often a personal choice for people to label themselves that way. They don't like the baggage that comes with "bisexual."
     
  12. IanGallagher

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    For a couple weeks I was nearly gay. Then for a couple weeks I was nearly straight. Then starting today I started noticing guys more again. Currently wondering what gender I'll be interested in tomorrow. Will it be a gay day or a straight day? So, I'd say that's fluid.
     
  13. Chip

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    I had girlfriends (long term... one-and two-year relationships) in high school and afterwards. The relationships were nonsexual up until my mid-20s. And it literally never occurred to me I might be gay until my mid-20s when I started having sex and realized there wasn't much to it. Then, for many years, I considered myself bisexual, though, as time went on, I realized that I really didn't have any meaningful, sexual connection toward women. I've never felt a particular draw to "the queer community", and, in fact, I dislike the word "queer."

    Also, for what it's worth, I'd say 75% of the gay men I know, as they started to come out, identified as bisexual initially. They freely admit that this was a "bridge" for them, because they were not ready to accept themselves as gay, and throw away the idea they might one day have a female partner. But for most of them, once they looked at themselves and realized they'd had a half dozen boyfriends, no girlfriends, and no real interest in girlfriends, that they were kidding themselves. And among the majority of other gay teens/young adults I've spoken to, they also identified as bi for a while, even if they *knew* they were gay, because it was easier and safer to say that to someone than to admit they were gay. So based on that (very unscientific) sampling, I can certainly infer that there are a lot of gay men (and, likely, lesbians, though I have less experience with that group) that identify initially as bisexual who later realize it was a facade that made it easier for them to accept themselves.
     
  14. Spatula

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    Interesting. Yeah, that is different, though it doesn't fully answer my question. How did you feel about your relative attractions from say... the age of 12 to the age of 25 and then after? What sorts of things turned you on, or at least seemed to turn you on? Porn? Schoolmates?

    I dated girls, but never had a girlfriend or sex with a girl until well after I had lost my virginity to a guy. Not for lack of trying... more an abundance of failing. I had considered the possibility that I was gay when I first started coming out as bi. However, I was more concerned with the possibility that I was trans. I'm quite certain I'm genderqueer to some extent, though I've gotten more used to being male and I plan to stay male for the rest of my life. I'd be willing to explain that a lot more in PMs if you're ever interested. I made a massive post about my life in another thread anyway with all the details.

    I have only heard about this on the internet. Pretty much every gay friend I have came out as gay initially, and I am one of very few of the bi guys I know who are actually out to their parents. I know a few others that are closeted though, and they intend to stay that way.

    If circumstances in my life had been slightly different, I would have never outed myself though. If I had different values, I could've lived a relatively straight life and gotten away with it. And like I said, I know quite a few that are open about it to me, but very hush-hush to their parents. So I would counter that for every out bisexual who ends up being gay there are probably 3 more that are in the closet, hiding among your straight friends. Probably all those Conservative Christians that think being gay is a choice.

    Anyway... this is a derail.

    I've noticed you have a tendency to bring up the "bi now gay later" thing in pretty much every thread that relates to bisexuality, no matter how unrelated that is to the topic at hand. This seems like a very dismissive attitude, if this is all you have to say. "Don't bother talking about this because it's rare". Well... okay. Some people on the site are trans. You wanna tell them that because they're only .3% of the population, they're really not worth discussing?

    I'm not convinced that the "bi now gay later" thing is more common than the real deal though. I think you surround yourself with gay friends and don't really have an objective grasp of some social mores outside that circle. Go to a furry convention, perhaps. 40% of furries are bi. I don't know.
     
    #14 Spatula, Aug 9, 2012
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  15. Pret Allez

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    I agree, and I have noticed that about your posting as well, Chip. Also, my unscientific sampling shows that 0% of self-identified bisexuals come out as gay later. That just shows that the value of anecdotal evidence is near zero...
     
  16. Chip

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    Prior to about ~25 or so, I absolutely thought I was straight. I'm one of those rare ones who never questioned it as a kid or teen. I had girlfriends, and dated girls. Porn in those days wasn't accessible to teens, so that didn't enter into it. Fantasies were vague, and I seem to remember it was mostly or nearly always girls. Though... looking back, there's no question that some of my behaviors were clearly gay. I can remember being attracted to a couple of the guys on Zoom (a PBS show) when I was 12 or 13, and a cute guy in a Levi's Jeans commercial, and things like that... but it never remotely crossed my mind that this meant I might like boys or was gay, and I don't think I fantasized about them sexually.

    Part of the gay denial is cultural/environmental; there were virtually no indicators of gay people around. To give you an idea of how in denial or naive I was, it never occurred to me that Paul Lynde or Rip Taylor were gay, even though if you watch Youtube clips... they're about the most flamingly obvious people you could find. So it was basically denial, but denial so deep it was never even questioned.

    As far as the bi-as-bridge-to-gay thing, I'm going to stand by it. As I said, 3/4 of the people I know in real life went through a phase where they labeled themselves as bi. We have plenty of people on EC who have described labeling themselves as bi, and then realizing they were gay. And I have probably another maybe 50 or so I know as acquaintances, some online some irl, that I know have gone through the same thing.

    There are a handful of studies, but if I am remembering correctly, the data was conflicting; some appeared to show clear indicators of bisexuality as a bridge, others did not. As far as I know, none of the studies were looking at this variable specifically which may skew the validity of the findings.

    And in my own samples, there's also sampling bias, which I'll freely acknowledge. Most of the people I am speaking of are not polyamorous, furry, bear, leather, or any of a half dozen other categories one could describe segments of the gay population. They're a mix of ordinary, average guys, ranging in age from late teens to 50s, skewing more toward teens to early 30s. However, it's not a circle of friends; it's a pretty wide range of people I've spoken to, worked with, been around in a bunch of different contexts. So while it isn't a random sample, I also don't think it's a function of the typical friend-cohort bias.

    And let me be completely clear: I know plenty of people who are lifetime bisexuals. I don't doubt that bisexuality is real, and there are certainly people who are truly bisexual and remain so throughout their lifetimes, switching genders of partners in different relationships, or being in polyamorous relationships with both sexes. I don't mean to slight anyone who identifies as bisexual. But I also know it is a convenient bridge that, for many people, can serve as a "sticking place" preventing self-acceptance. It is those people, who are miserable because they simply can't accept who they are, that don't benefit from the label. I mean really... the guy who has never dated a girl, only dates guys, only looks at guys, only masturbates to guys, only watches gay porn... but insists he's bisexual? He's probably kidding himself. And there are a lot of those early on in their coming out process. Those are likely not bisexual, or if they are, it's a Kinsey 5.5 or something. For the rest, the label is an accurate descriptor.

    And, as I've also said many times, sexuality isn't binary or trinary, and the labels are often used out of simplicity or convenience anyway, as a rough approximation of where someone lies on the spectrum.

    Your mileage may vary.
     
  17. Chip

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    No, but again, it goes back to the adage "when you hear hooves, think horses not zebras."

    I don't feel qualified to comment meaningfully (i.e, come up with a suitable analogy) on the trans issue because it's not something I have any expertise in.

    But in a similar vein, if somebody says they have anxiety about being gay, it's a lot more likely they have plain old anxiety as everyone does when they're going through the stages than it is that they have OCD. And if someone has a sore throat after giving a blowjob, it's a lot more likely they have strep throat than HIV.

    I argue that something similar applies to bisexuality vs. denial. If someone is having difficulty accepting who they are, and really doesn't want to be gay, but is attracted almost exclusively to same-sex people, and feels a "romantic" connection to opposite sex, it's more likely they're gay than bi, based on my experience.

    Besides, we aren't buying a label and having it tattooed on our foreheads. At least I hope not. If someone is full of angst and can't make a decision, and decides they are gay, then they have to process and think about the loss of opposite-sex attraction, and the trappings that come with it, and come to accept that loss. If they later decide they like an opposite-sex person, they really haven't lost anything.

    But in the reverse situation, then they may simply be putting off something they need to process out of fear... and that can really limit their ability to be happy. For one thing, it's inauthentic, which, as we know, is a contributor to shame. For another, it may result in someone getting into a hetero marriage and being miserable, and having a heckuva mess to clean up years later.

    That's the main reason why I encourage people to really look at whether there's denial going on, rather than just accept the simplest and safest solution... because often, the individual will end up wishing they'd done something different later on.
     
  18. Nobodylikesme

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    yeah you nailed it dude! That's excatly how it goes for me!
     
  19. Spatula

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    One population is much more publicly visible than the other because they don't really have a choice. In order to live a remotely comfortable life if you're gay, you have to come out. Most bisexuals can hold down monogamous relationships with the opposite sex without too many hiccups, so the motivation to come out is different. Of course, they can also hold down monogamous relationships with the same sex and pass as gay, and some of them do this.

    The main problem to deal with is that most people have a binary view of sexuality, and someone that begins experiencing same-sex thoughts might default to the view that it makes them gay, without ever really considering they could still be genuinely attracted to the opposite sex in addition. There aren't really very many resources online to help deal with this. Psychological research on bisexuals pretty much started last year.

    I agree. That sounds gay.

    If they come on the site and say they had long-term relationships with the opposite sex that they enjoyed, and lots of sex in those relationships that they enjoyed, and they declare it null-and-void because they have a same-sex crush now and it's all they can think about and they can't imagine ever going back again... I'm going to be skeptical. Either about the authenticity of their previous attractions, or about the exclusivity of their current attraction. Something doesn't add up. I've had pretty strong crushes make it seem like I was locked to one side, and I probably could've reinforced that pretty strongly and blazed a different path if I had decided to change my identity based around that, or if I had different views than I do.

    If it feels like something you have to "rationalize away" then that seems more like mind kung-fu than a programmed, innate orientation. Though I am a bit skeptical that it isn't all mind kung-fu to begin with. The label you pick for yourself does seem to affect the way you see everything and become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    So I will apologize in return if I seem skeptical of everyone. I could easily see myself in their place, rationalizing myself to be there through the right set of circumstances. I think you probably feel the same way in reverse, based on what you've said. It is not my intention to impose my own narrative on other people. At the same time... that is what you're doing, by bringing BNGLs up in every thread. It is a niche issue.

    The simplest and safest solution is usually picking a side.
     
  20. Chip

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    I agree with most everything you've said in the above post. I think there's one point worth amplifying:

    I'm inclined to agree with your skepticism, with one caveat: I'm constantly amazed at how strong the denial mechanisms can be, and how much the mind can essentially fool or counterfeit the feelings. We've had several members in the past year, JustinF being the most recent, who, at the point they joined EC, were absolutely convinced they were straight. Justin had a girlfriend, whom he loved, and whom he thought he had a pretty good relationship with, and enjoyed sex with. But when he started connecting with his (gay) housemate, and allowing himself to really feel the feelings inside, he realized that all of the feelings he'd had for his girlfriend were minimal compared to the feelings he had, not just for his boyfriend, but for men in general. And as he did various exercises (watching porn, masturbating to thoughts of men), he, in essence, found his whole world shifting beneath his feet.

    He describes it much more artfully in his thread "straight to gay in 6 months" or something like that.

    He also went through a phase where he identified himself as bisexual, and I believe he would agree that it was mostly because he wasn't ready to accept the "baggage" that comes with acknowledging being gay, more so than feelings he had for his girlfriend. And now (last I checked) he identifies as gay.

    I've personally worked with a number of people who went through a very similar process, where they really had little or no conscious awareness until some sentinel event occurred that brought it to light. I don't know how common these sorts of experiences are, but I know of probably at least a half-dozen I can think of offhand.

    So this also throws a wrench in what we know about how orientation expresses; specifically, that our unconscious and conscious can get in the way of what our true feelings are, particularly if the stakes are high (parents that will disown you, having heard lots of negativity about being gay, etc). But in my experience, if you start to even acknowledge this as a possibility, then you begin to crack the facade that conscious or unconscious are trying to maintain, and as you do that, the underlying orientation surfaces.

    Now, again, this doesn't mean that the underlying orientation may not be a solid Kinsey 3.5. But in my experience, that has happened a lot less often, particularly in these sorts of cases, than someone who starts out at one end of the spectrum, sort of makes a quantum jump to the middle, as they start to accept themselves, and then, sometime later, continues (perhaps more slowly) the move out toward the gay end of the spectrum.

    What's obvious from this discussion is somebody really needs to do some decent research on the subject. :slight_smile: