Effeminate Gay Males vs MTF's

I see very little comparison between the groups. One is cisgender, one is transgender. Effeminate men are men, whilst trans women are women. Like all women, they can be masculine or feminine; they do not have to hype up the latter in order to be women, though it may help other people see them that way. I don't know what you mean by "intristic desires"; could you please specify?

Remember that feminine men can have any sexuality; I don't see why you specify gay here, since you don't specify an orientation for MtF people in your observation.

It's also fine for men to wear makeup and doesn't mean they want to be female. Why should they have reserves about wearing gender ambiguous clothing if that's what they want to do?

 

Polish on a nail does not a woman make. This is the same sort of attitude that prohibited women from wearing pants in the dark ages. "They're wearing pants! They must want to be men. Stone them!!!!" People like make-up and glitter and polish because it's fun. It makes people feel good about themselves. I mean, Google "men wearing nail polish" and you'll see dozens and dozens of male celebrities. Seal, Johnny Depp, Tim Tebow getting a pedicure. Not everything is a statement meant to be taken literally about a person's gender identity or sexual orientation. I used to play with nail polish and make-up when I was a kid. I used to wear dresses around the house when I was a kid. I'm totally a boy, I love my penis, and I love other penis. I have -zero- desire to transition. Honestly, this thread offended me a tiny bit because it has some sexist undertones.

I mean, obviously, no one here is going to even suggest that because some women are wearing pants they wanna be men. But these sorts of threads always pop up on EC when men break the stereotypical mold of what a man "should be" and people like to wonder aloud the "political ramifications" of it when really it's just a splash of color on the end of a finger.

Beyond that, I don't understand what you're asking. I think that emotionally feminine gay men and MTF's have a lot in common with everyone else since all emotions are universal.

 

Men may wear makeup, polish, and dresses, or whatever and still call themselves men. They might not even be gay. But there's a difference. I guess what you're asking, is what makes someone transgender, right?

For me, it's not because I want to wear women's clothes, because that's only a part of it. Being trans is deeper than that. Unfortunately, it can be hard to explain, but I'll try. It's not women's clothes that I want, so much as their body and their life (and I did not mean for that to sound so villainous). Regardless of clothing, I see myself as a girl, and I want others to see me as one too. I have a male body which I can't stand, and I want it replaced or altered into a female body.

Quite simply, the line between "effeminiate gay male" and transwoman, or for that matter "masculine gay woman" and transman, is in the heart of the individual. I want to have a female body and be treated like a girl even when I'm not in women's clothes.

Maybe it is too hard to explain.

 

The only "transgender line" there is is effeminate guys are guys. MtF transgenders are girls.

As solar said, it's the same with "masculine lesbian" and FtM transgender.

The difference is in what gender they are. Not in how they dress/act/etc.

 

Being transsexual has absolutely nothing to do with social stereotypes and everything to do with being uncomfortable with the sex you were born as. I'm not a girl because I liked to dress up, or play with Barbies. I'm a girl because for my entire life I've been ashamed and uncomfortable with my penis and body.

There are trans girls that are masculine tomboys, there are trans men that are effeminate. Stereotypes have nothing to do with it.

 

I don't know either what you mean by "intrinsic desires."

The "transgender line," to the extent that there is one, is between people who identify as the gender they were assigned at birth, and people who don't. Although there are some people that are in kind of a grey area on that.

But it has nothing to do with what you think of their gender or gender expression--it only has to do with what they think. For our purposes, they are women if they say they are women, and they are men if they say the are men. And they are allowed to be confused, and to change their minds as often as necessary. Our job is just to accept their identity as they represent it to us.

Aside from them telling you, there is no definitive way to tell how someone identifies. Certainly, in my own experience, it is impossible to distinguish between butch women and transgender men (pre-transition), by any characteristic or behavior other than them explicitly telling you. I'm sure the same is true in many cases for feminine men and transgender women.

Sex, gender identity, and gender expression are three different things. Clothing and makeup and the like are gender expression, whereas whether they are men or women is gender identity. Forget "ambiguous" clothing. A man can go completely high femme, in a ball gown and a tiara, and seven inch glitter pumps--he's still a man if he says he is.

I'm curious, Mango, what your personal relationship is with either of these categories of people. Do you belong to either group yourself? Are you attracted to members of either group as romantic partners? What is the personal relevance of this topic, for you? People might be less offended by your questions if they understand how the topic relates to you personally. Does finding the line between these two things have some personal significance for you?

 

Okay, this thread is pretty damn offensive. I know it wasn't intended to be, but it is. Mango, you're generalizing way too much. Also, just because most trans women are effeminate does not mean they're the same as effeminate gay men because they're not. One is male and the other is female.

I happen to be an example of a tomboyish MTF. I don't wear makeup, I don't wear skirts or dresses, I enjoy wearing pants, and I'm even okay with looking a bit androgynous. I am by no means feminine, but I still have a female gender identity. Still, I have a feminine demeanor. When I talk, I use feminine inflections. There's little doubt I'm a girl. Nobody ever calls me "sir."

Still, your logic that any guy that likes a trans women is gay and any girl that likes one is straight is both insulting to trans women and their partners. Also, not everyone who dates trans people are "tranny chasers." A lot of men who date trans women are very much straight and women who date them are very much gay--or sometimes bisexual or some other form of sexual variance.

 

My grain of salt.... There's almost no mention of cross-dressers in this thread while there should be.
Guys who present themselves dressed and attired as women, while still identifying strongly as male, are cross-dressing, per definition.

The difference between a cross-dresser and a pre-op transwoman is that the trans woman NEEDS to identify as a woman, not just dress as one. She does it for her sanity, for her life, while the cross-dresser does it for a thrill, for fun.

I can understand why you would tend to put them all together; I mean, they were all born with a penis and dress as woman. You should really not stop at the appearances though.

As for you never meeting an effeminate ftm, well, Hi! :smilewave I keep my hair long and sometimes I cross-dress (dress as a woman, I take it I have to precise, everything considered). But my doing so has nothing to do with my male identity or even my "intrinsic desires" , as you call it. If you must know, I'm bisexual leaning much toward women, and with both men and women I'm a top. Surprised much?

 

Excuse me, but I think you're base for this argument is invalid unless you have done some top notch studies with women from all over the spectrum and country[or wherever]. How can you say there is an average type of woman as far as mannerisms and dress go? The average woman wears skirts when she can? The average woman prefers to be in dresses?

Do you have any idea of how many completely feminine cisgender women there are, that want nothing to do with skirts and dresses? They're not tomboyish in the slightest, but they'e not up for shopping for all the new trends, bedazzling their necks and fingers, getting manis and pedis, and looking sexy in a little black dress.

I really think you'e stereotyping too much. And to be honest, it's a bit annoying.

And going along with PurpleCrab, I have a lot of experience with FtMs who are hardly masculine at all. They enjoy being more feminine, but are not at all women.

So yeah.

 

Mango, what exactly do you want here? Most of your posts have to do with the trans community in some way. You've been coming off as highly offensive and it's starting to wear on even my nerves.

You've been making far too many generalizations and I can't figure out what exactly you want from us.

 

Transwomen are women. Effeminate gay men are men. Their place on the feminine to masculine scale (if there even is such a thing) has nothing to do with their gender.

There are tomboyish transwomen, feminine transwomen, masculine gay men, effeminate gay men, and everything in between. Just because you don't see any MtFs that are tomboyish doesn't mean they don't exist. I have never met a person from Belgium but I'm 100% sure the country exists. Belgium residents don't need my affirmation of their existence.

Anyway, if a man enjoys "feminine" things, he is still a man. If a woman enjoys "masculine" things, she is still a woman. Transwomen are women and transmen are men. It works the same way with them because no matter what they enjoy, they are still the gender they identify with.

If a straight male is attracted to a transwoman that is pre-op, he is still straight. If a gay female is attracted to a transwoman that is pre-op, she is still gay. Because a transwoman is a woman.

 

Experience does not objective and reliable observations make.

I don't like your use of the word "mimic". It implys they're trying to be something they're not, when in fact they are women.

That is old-fashioned stereotyping of women. I am feminine, but I loathe skirts, never touch skinny trousers, and only wore leggings for sport in school, because they were warmer than shorts.

Someone can have a romantic relationship regardless of the other persons' physical traits, e.g. sex, hair, disability, etc.. You (generic form) wouldn't usually specifically seek tall people and make that a dealbreaker and the primary point of romantic attraction; height is coincidental. As is, in this case, sex.

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I'm going to agree with Hot Pink and Fugs: You are coming off as offensive in this and other threads -- I appreciate that it's unintentional, but it's still the way it seems. Before continuing this discussion I'd like to know a little bit of why you've come to EC, why you are almost exclusively posting in trans-related threads to make uninformed comparisons with other groups, and how these issues relate to you. I have no problem with you being here -- I'm always happy to see our community grow and I love a good debate -- but I'm afraid that you are not being constructive at the moment, even if that's unintentional.

 

I see little to no comparison. Before I really started owning transsexual as a part of who I was, I came out as a gay male. I never felt like I fit in with the gay guys. Not to say that I didn't enjoy hanging out with gay males, I do. I just always felt like something was different and I didn't fit in.

In fact, I honestly believe that on average gay men act MORE feminine than transwomen (at least transwomen that haven't start transitioning). That's not based on research or anything, just the opinion of myself and other trans friends of mine. Every trans girl I know is kind of tomboyish honestly.

My ex-boyfriend for example was way more effeminate than me. It used to bother me that I was never suspected of being gay, but I really think now its because that's not what I was, I was trans.

 

^ I don't think you can expect people to get equal respect by lumping them all in the same group of "incredibly similar". There's a reason the distinctions between different groups in the LGBT spectrum exist... because everyone IS different. Really, nobody needs to label themselves as gay or lesbian or trans or whatever. Everyone could do just fine running around saying "I am a male/female/etc. and I like men/women/etc.". The reasons these specific labels exist is because it makes things significantly easier for some people to find their identities to present to society, and I don't think stripping them of that or grouping them with someone else - no matter how similar they may be - provides that same sense of comfort.

I think the other thing to keep in mind is that while I'd believe there is some division between effeminate gays and transwomen, that division isn't really present here on EC, since people are generally pretty respectful of everyone else, no matter how specific or odd their identity may seem. So while I get that you're trying to clear up some misconceptions... it's kind of like trying to fix something that isn't broken. That might be why it's coming off a little offensively.

The only similarity between effeminate gays and transwomen are that they are both feminine. Does that make effeminate straight women as similar as the others?