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The LGB?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Minamimoto_Fan, Oct 14, 2012.

  1. Minamimoto_Fan

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    Something I have began to notice as of late, is the fact that many people do not consider transsexuals as part of our community. Via chats on chat rooms, ****** (Don't judge, I get bored and want random chats sometimes, it's nothing dirty.) and even some people I may start a conversation with at the mall while I'm trying to pick out a new outfit.

    The thing is, most of the time they don't even give good reason to why they hate transsexuals. They'll just say something like, "They shouldn't be considered a part of us," or "They should have their own thing, since their situation IS a choice." I have also seen a guy and his boyfriend make snarky comments when the saw a MTF that works at the mall talk with a customer about a guy that passed by the store.

    Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought we were supposed to support each other, not lash out against ourselves. If we attack each other, then there is no hope for anything to progress. I know I'm probably just being a tad bit naive, but shouldn't we be above this?

    This is the conversation on ****** that was the final straw and made me want to post this.
    IMO, I have nothing wrong with Transsexuals. In fact, I had a very good Trans friend who I loved talking with until he moved because of a guy was constantly harrasing him for being a FTM. Like I said before, for things to get better, we need to stand together, or nothing will change.

    I just wanted to see what you guys think about this matter.
     
  2. I'm Cisgender and that's stupid.
     
  3. Fugs

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    It's just ignorance, the T tends to be silent a lot of the time and there is a much bigger stigma towards trans people than LGB people. Trans women are regularly portrayed in the media as lying and sex crazed. Out to get unsuspecting men into bed and turn them gay. Trans men are thought of as tom boys and much like lesbians "faking it to get attention". It's disgusting honestly, but it's going to take a long time before it gets fixed any time soon.
     
  4. Pret Allez

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    Transgender people are a part of the community. There might be some sort of trans separatism that I'm not aware of, but my understanding is that they want to be accepted and loved along with the cisgender people. They have literally the hardest time, because their very identities are not accepted.
     
  5. Gekko

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    I didn't understand the cookie monster ally thing.
    They should have their own thing? I think that together we're stronger!
    Also, we are the same thing as trans people, human beings with a different way of living our own sexuality/gender identity/life.
     
  6. Jinkies

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    I don't even.
     
  7. Pyrotactick

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    One thing: THE **** COURSE THEY BELONG IN THE BIG OL' FAMILY OF LGBT-AND-ETC.!!!
     
  8. Lessard

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    Trans people are awesome! I love em just as much as everyone else. We're all people! Like seriously if they just met one and gave them a chance they wouldn't be saying things like this. I know a FtM and he's awesome. It's LGBT.
     
  9. RainDreamer

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    Oh so I had a choice to not be transgender? What the hell was I doing, suffering years of denial and depression, trying to kill myself over this 'choice'? Why can't I just 'choose' to live as a male and forget all this alien, disgusted feeling of my body I have to deal with every single waking hour?

    Stupid politics even within our family...

    I think we should just call ourselves the Rainbow people, no stupid inclusion/exclusion politics inherent in that name.
     
  10. I'm probably going to be in the minority, but I don't necessarily feel like the T belongs with the LGB. It's not because I feel it's a choice, that trans people don't deserve fair treatment, or that they're delusional, whatever. I think it's weird that it should be tossed in with a bunch of sexual orientations, because it has nothing to do with that. The T and the LGB communities may share some similarities and goals, but there are certain differences that I feel are significant enough to set us apart. The major one is identity vs. pathology. I saw a post in another community that worded this far better than I could, but since it's private, I can't link to it, so I'll do my best to summarise.

    Although I am transexual, I don't see it as an identity. I know some people do, and that's fine. The more the T mixes with the LGB though, I feel like this is becoming the prevailing view that all transexual people (I'm being specific right now to binary people who undergo transition, or would if they could) feel this way. Now, the LBG community has a history of their sexual orientations being pathologised, when they clearly shouldn't be. From aligning with the LGB and claiming the T as an identity, I feel like it's sending the message that transexual people don't want to be pathologised either. The fact is that, many, including myself, do want this to be treated like an illness, because guess what? If you don't have a condition, insurance isn't going to pay for you to undergo procedures, which are often required for you to be legally recognised as your true gender, I might add.

    If society were accepting of people who were LGB, if prejudice, discrimination, or oppression based on sexual orientation didn't exist, everything would be peachy. If society were accepting of people who were transexual, if prejudice, discrimination, or oppression based on transexualism didn't exist, we would still face struggles. We would still be depressed and anxious that our bodies don't match our brains, we would still have to come up with thousands of dollars to fund surgeries to fix said bodies, etc. Why? Because it's a condition, and I feel the LGB tendency to say that we should embrace being transexual has a negative effect on how we view and approach it.
     
  11. LightningRider

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    I may be biased on this opinion, but I think the T belongs in LGBT.

    If not for the fact that we should stick together than the fact that many would see our sexuality as hard to understand.
    I think trans* people should be included because the T represents us all, FTM and MTF and everything inbetween. And our sexual preference isn't exactly easily explained.
    A guy can like a guy but what if that guy was born a girl? Loads of people would want to label him a homosexual but probably equally as many would say he's straight because they refuse to think of him as a him.

    So THAT'S why I think the T belongs, it may be a blanket for all of us, but we deserve to be in there.


    I mean, if we start to get really picky, shouldn't there be an A in it for the asexual?
    And a P for pansexual?

    So honestly, if you really don't want to have the T there, at least add a + because it's not just gays, lesbians and bisexuals who should be mentioned.

    LGBT+ :grin:
     
    #11 LightningRider, Oct 15, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  12. J Snow

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    I've heard the argument that transgender individuals should not be part of the LGBT community by both trans and cis people, the same way some people argue about intersex people being considered a part of the transgender community.

    Its a very complex issue, and while I agree that lumping transgender in with LGBQPA+ individuals does cause some confusion, but I think there are overwhelming benefits for both sides. This is the way I view the pros and cons.

    Cons
    -It has potential to perpetuate the misconception that sexual orientation and gender identity are not separate from one another. This to me is the biggest issue.

    -As Electrolicious said, there is the issue of homosexuality no longer being consider a mental disorder, whereas gender identity disorder is still classified as a mental illness. I'm not sure where I stand on all this, but I do feel it creates a bit of dissonance.

    Pros
    -Both being oppressed minorities means that we are able to help one another out and empathize with one another.

    -Transgender individuals get to benefit from being part of a large community. The transgender subgroup is rather small, and being able to feel welcome in GSA, LGBTQ events, gay bars, etc. is really beneficial to transgender individuals. I know I feel more welcome at gay bars than in straight bars etc.

    -As a large group we have the benefit of being able to set up goals that help meet the needs of everyone. We are able to push for laws, etc. that benefit all of us with more ease. I would still vote for gay marriage just as I would hope that gay couple would have my transgender related rights in mind when they make their decisions.

    -LGBQP and T people really get their persecution for the same reasons. Both of the issues come down to being gender related. LGBPA people are being persecuted for being attracted to someone not consistent of what is expected of their assigned birth sex. We are both fighting for the same thing when it comes down to it. Transgender people defy birth sex expectations more than LGBQPA people and therefore receive most of the fire, but at the end of the day we share similar persecution for similar reasons, and should be bonded by that. The acceptance of transgender rights ultimately leads to a better acceptance of sexual orientation, and not to go all "check your privilege" on people, but transgender people really do absorb most of the persecution on this, and for queer people to throw them under the bus is hypocritical and disrespectful. Its a lot like saying you are a "straight-acting", and not talking to the "effeminate gays" because you are afraid of what people will think of you by matter of association.

    -As mentioned above with facing persecution for similar issues, both groups are accused of "choosing" their sexual orientation/gender identity, and both are largely criticized for their lack of reproduction.

    -While sexual orientation and gender identity are separate, a large number of trans people (myself included) began dealing with their sexuality before tackling the larger issue their gender identity. I think its rather cruel to "kick someone out" who for example may have identified as lesbian, but then realized they were a trans male. Also, from research I've seen, the majority of trans people identify as gay/bi/pansexual and would thus be a part of the community anyway.



    Edit: Also, if we go down this path, would someone who is heterosexual but homoromantic be considered part of the "LGB" community? Sexual orientation and romantic attraction are largely considered to be separate.
     
    #12 J Snow, Oct 15, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  13. Spatula

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    Trans people face worse prejudice than any other queer minority, and they are a queer minority, just as the G's and B's are, so it's appropriate to keep them in the acronym.
     
  14. Rakkaus

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    I think it can depend on the context. If you're explicitly talking about issues involving sexual orientation, then LGB is accurate. L,G, and B all have to do with sexual orientation, whereas T does not.

    But if you're referring to the general community of gender and sexual minorities as a group, certainly the T should not be left out. Though to be fair you should also throw in Q, another Q, I, P, A, etc., though that's how we end up with such an alphabet soup. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    It's true that being trans is a different (and imo much more complicated) issue than being lesbian/gay/bisexual. And unfortunately it is also true that I have seen some gays (mostly on the internet, in comments sections on some queer news sites) call for dropping the T, claiming that being associated with trans people hurts their image. But compromising a movement for justice, equality, and human rights on the basis of what would be good PR among bigoted straights is not the right way to go. All LGBTQ people need to stand united, not allow ourselves to be divided against each other.
     
  15. aeva

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    I'm not quite sure where I stand on the subject. I've seen a great many people's opinions from both sides (cis and trans) and there seems to be pros and cons, as J Snow so eloquently described.

    Either way, I don't think it's for the cis people to decide. If trans* men and women see themselves as part of the community (some do and some don't), I think they should have the option of either forming their own group, or coming together with others (i.e. the LGBQPA-whatevers). We know what it's like to face discrimination, I think it's absolutely appalling that we do the same thing to other people.

    Going to be a total girl here, and reference a Tyra episode about the hierarchy within the community. The panel (a bi male, a trans woman, a femme lesbian, a butch lesbian, a femme gay guy, and butch gay guy and a drag queen) had to decide who to vote out. All but the trans woman said without question that the bisexual should not be counted as part of the community. The trans woman, however, said that she did not feel like part of the community because it had nothing to do with her sexuality. She identified as a woman- not trans. As far as I can tell, other trans* men and women may think differently, and may have different needs depending on where they are in their self-acceptance, coming out and transition. People who are just embarking on that path may need more support from a larger community, as opposed to those that have been past their transition phase for years, and are fully comfortable with their identity.

    ---------- Post added 15th Oct 2012 at 08:13 AM ----------

    Gay Kingdom - Tyra (Part 3) - YouTube

    Here's the link to the specific section I was talking about.
     
  16. Cassandra

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    Transgender situation a choice?

    Well, all LGBT will always have a choice: or you deny your condition or you accept it.

    Even so, if you choose to deny your condition, it will be only a temporal choice, because sooner or later you'll come to accepto yourself, so is not a real choice after all. Specially because I don't know any LGBT that accepted itself right away (there's always a denial phase right?) so it is reduced to a fake choice, a mere procastination.
     
  17. TheEdend

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    I think that is a valid point, but you have to remember that insurance will determine whether they will cover HRT or surgery based on the DSM (eh) rather than if people accept someone or not.

    I think that for transexuals you could make a point, but even then we already have a lot of transexuals that go "rogue" after fully transitioning. They don't considere themselves trans, they don't consider themselves part of the LGBT community and they cut all contact with it. From what I have heard, so take that as you will, its already a pretty common occurance.

    The thing is that the T represents all transgender people including genderquer, cross-dressers, agender and other labels that are very much part of the identity of a lot people.

    I also think J snow explained a lot of things that I agree with.

    I think that's a good point.
     
  18. Emberstone

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    Let us not forget that bisexuals are treated with the same disregard by some ignorant people within the LGBT community. There are alot of people who are gay who think there is no such thing as bisexuality.

    Society is like a fractal; the deeper you go, you see the same patterns remerge.

    A good analogy of this is the novel 'Paradise' by Toni Morrison. In it, a community of african americans break away from what they view as white society to escape racisem, and form an all black town. the deeper you get into the story, you realize that the racisem that they were running from caught up to them, as they divided the town into the people on top, whoses skin was the darkest (known in the story as '8 rock'), pushing the people with lighter skin to the margins.

    It is the same way in every societal group, sadly, and until we recognize that, we are going to perpetuate it.
     
  19. SFSorrow

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    Surely LGB and T were included because trans* people have historically faced many of the same issues in soicety and similar prejudices, and many people continue to not distinguish much between them, so together the movement is stronger.

    This may be a controversial viewpoint but I also think that there is a significant degree of overlap between the two groups, to use a cliched phrase it's a spectrum so artificially dividing the groups fragments and weakens the movement. Obviously there are some issues that don't apply across the board but how is that different in principle to differing issues that gay males and lesbians face? And what about all the different varieties of trans*, should they all be split off?

    We're all fighting for respect, equality and the right to express ourselves as we see fit and love who we want without fear, and surely that unites us all and over rides the differences?
     
    #19 SFSorrow, Oct 15, 2012
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  20. I didn't mean to imply that acceptance would cover trans-related healthcare. As for the "eh" regarding the DSM, I'm taking it you're not a fan of the diagnosis. For the record, neither am I. While I see transexualism as a medical condition, I don't see it as a mental health issue, but a physical one that, understandably, causes psychological distress.

    I was only speaking for people who are transexual. Many do cut off all contact with the queer community post-transition, and I can get where they're coming from. Even with a full beard and obviously masculine name, I have heard of transexual men being misgendered in queer spaces, even after telling people they're male. I think many times, they also don't feel welcome, as evidenced by the conversation in the first post. Nobody wants to be part of a community where half of its members don't want to be associated with them. Finally, I think trans people are likely to leave the LBGT community because they want to live stealth. Personally, I will always be apart of the queer community, because I identify as other than heterosexual.

    Regarding the whole transgender "umbrella," I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that, and while I respect everyone, I don't care much, because it doesn't affect how transexualism is viewed and treated.
     
    #20 electrolicious, Oct 17, 2012
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