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Enlightement about pronoun usage!

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by PurpleCrab, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. PurpleCrab

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    I was chatting with a friend and it came around to me asking her, why is it so difficult for lots of people to modify the pronoun usage when talking about/to somebody who is trans*?

    I was completely clueless as to why it's not as easy for them as it is for me.

    Then she explained it in a way that was very enlightening to me, and I feel like I need to share: She said that the capacity to change the labels on people in one's mind is a talent that not everybody possesses. She, for example, tries hard but has a very difficult time with it, even when somebody simply asks her to call them by their nickname, it takes her a lot of time to get used to calling them by that new nickname.

    It came to me as a shock but I can finally say that I understand why it could be so difficult to simply change He for She, and the likes. A talent. Ha!

    Honestly though what matters to me is that nobody gets harmed and that things are kept respectful :slight_smile:
     
  2. wandering i

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    The first time I ever encountered the notion of someone being trans, I was very confused about whether to refer to them by their birth sex or the sex they were transitioning into. Although I knew what they would prefer, I was waiting for society to tell me what was right. Should I ignore their desires and label them as their birth sex regardless? Or was it okay to 'play along'? Obviously this is a really cynical and insensitive way of thinking about it. I was sheltered and clueless then, and although I've changed, as time has gone on I have met other people who seem stuck on calling trans* people by their birth sex only.

    The most recent time this happened I was pretty upset with the person repeatedly making this mistake. He kept calling my friend "he", even though I always refer to her as "she", as do all the other people in her life. Before him screwing up, I had never even thought of my friend as trans- only as a very sassy, somewhat quirky lady. Even after spending a couple days hanging out at her house with all of her friends, he was still doing it when he told me about their day. I was shocked because I didn't think he was such a rude and mean person, but it reminded me of my first exposure and initial confusion. I was very ignorant back then and it took a year or two before that discriminating and rather cruel ignorance completely disappeared.

    Back then I saw my trans friends as people who were trying to be something else, and that part confused me. But now I just see them as my friends. And I really hope others who have that ignorance also get to be around more trans people and learn to respect them as people instead of being hung up on how someone would judge them for being decent to a minority.

    Not to discredit your friend's reason- remembering new names and keeping track of titles is pretty hard for me too. But I wanted to confess and apologize for being an asshole back then. I truly didn't know any better and I am so glad I have learned since then.
     
  3. Monmon

    Monmon Guest

    Hi, just wondering if it's ok with you, you used to be a woman, and now you're man? I would love to see a before and after picture, or just an after picture of you.
     
  4. Ticklish Fish

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    You mean like, people having hard time remembering names AND faces is not a trouble already? lol.

    some people's name and faces escape me and I rely on voice and faces...
     
  5. Pret Allez

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    Location:
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    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    It's something that I have to consciously work on, because sometimes my mind just plugs in what I see (sex traits) and overrides how I want to address people (by gender presentation). I'm basically only really good on the internet, and I have still managed to misgender people sometimes. (Sorry.)
     
  6. TheEdend

    TheEdend Guest

    When we are raised in a society that genders every single thing, its really hard to get out of that mentality. For me, its a conscious effort every time I interact with someone who is trans*. Shouldn't be this hard, but its just about getting used to it. It really gets me with friends who are agender. And especially since my friend is agender, but is a proud femme who loves lipstick, sparkles, and pretty stuff. Worst feeling when I mess up xD
     
  7. Pret Allez

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    Location:
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    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I don't know how to address agender people... :help:
     
  8. plasticcrows

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    If I can't discern someone's gender and I know that I will need to reference them in future conversations or will have conversations with them, I'll ask "What pronouns do you want me to use because I can't tell what gender you are." I've yet to meet an agendered person. I'd probably just switch up the pronouns. Like this "This is Taylor and she says that he is agendered."
     
  9. rday13

    rday13 Guest

    I tend to ask which pronouns the individual in question would me to address them with.
    Yeah it's hard for people to change habits, but not impossible. Not gendering someone correctly when they have already expressed a desire to addressed as such is offensive.
    Interesting...I haven't met any agendered individuals, although I would certainly ask them how they would prefer to be addressed.
    One of my friends is a linguistics major, and loves talking about pronouns. He is all for resurrecting gender-neutral english pronouns that existed in Middle English (yes they did exist), or instituting the modern equivalents such as 'zir' and 'zes'.
     
  10. Hexagon

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    My mother does the rather unfortunate problem of gendering all transpeople as male, regardless of whether they're women or men. :bang::bang::bang:
    Apart from my family, no one else knows I'm trans, so I don't have a problem. But I definitely would, if I were out.
     
  11. TheEdend

    TheEdend Guest

    Eh, just treat agender people like anyone else. Ask for the prefered pronoun and stick to whatever they give you.

    All up to them. Some people don't care, some people prefer gender neutral, some prefer specific gender neutral ones. Its a bit intimidating xD

    But yeah, if I have learnt anything is to always ask and stick to whatever they give you.

    But of course I'm not trans* so not my place to speak either xD
     
  12. When I read the title, I thought that we were going to talk about grammar and language. I got really excited.

    I think another way to put what your friend is saying is that not everybody makes a conscious effort to name things sometimes, which leads to complications especially when there is change.
     
  13. MusicIsLife

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    I know a few agendered/genderqueer/gender neutral people through friends, and most of the ones i've met go by "They" but as everyone else has said, its really up to them.

    I don't pass very well yet as I'm still early on in my transition, but when people do call me sir it's like the best thing in the world.
     
  14. Valarie

    Valarie Guest

    I think it does have to do with how knowledgeable and empathetic someone is.
    it is hard for cisgender to really be empathetic with transgender, since they don't really know what it feels like

    my mom has trouble with pronouns, though at first it was her still learning, though she still reference people with the wrong gender, not like she is not trying, it is just that she doesn't know what it feels like to be miss gendered your whole life

    to trans, gender is very important to us, hence why we want to transition
    I tend to call people or try really hard to, because i think about gender all the time
    I guess CIS just don't think about it and just instinctively gender people
     
  15. PurpleCrab

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    Honestly, for me personally other people's genders and sexual orientation only start to matter if I could consider being interested in them romantically/sexually. Before that, it really doesn't matter at all and it won't bother me one bit if I have to change my perceptions of the person at their request.

    Like, why would I care if a kid or a family member ends up being the other gender, or is gay, straight, bi, asexual...? Boy's as good as girl and vice-versa.

    But I guess that I am very open about gender roles and what they should be worth in society (not much).

    I'm the type of person who challenges oneself to understand everybody's point of view though and it really bothers me when I fail to understand.
     
  16. wandering i

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    I thought I'd pop in again and mention that since I have begun exploring my own gender, it has become important for me to avoid gendered terms for myself, and by proxy it's rubbed off on the other people I talk about. Even if my friends are cis male or female, my language has become more ambiguous about that and I just refer to them as people when writing, and even while speaking.

    Just out of coincidence, I've been marathoning Saturday Night Live and once I got through the 2010s, I went back to the 1990s, which is where the 'Pat' skits began. For anyone unfamiliar, or who only dimly remembers the skits, I heartily suggest watching them again if you can find them. The punchline is always how the men and women of the skit are left vexed over not being able to tell if Pat is male or female. But the tone is never cruel to Pat and there is some great usage of gender neutral language/avoiding gendered stereotypes in a natural sounding way.
    Whether trans or cis and simply curious about avoiding gendered terms and judgements, it's nice to see a good-natured, androgynous character.

    Now if only we had even more positive androgynous characters on TV and in film..
     
  17. Ticklish Fish

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    what if you have to learn a new language that involves gendered words?...
     
  18. wandering i

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    If you mean like in Spanish or French where different objects are inherently gendered (irony of irony, in French the penis is feminine, while the vagina is masculine!), I can't speak for anyone else but I don't find any of that problematic. I think the only time you should change your language to be considerate, is when you're referring to a specific person and they prefer certain pronouns over others. When you refer to them with the wrong pronoun, that's when it's rude- just like if someone repeatedly referred to you as the wrong sex even after you corrected them.

    ps- The only foreign language I know is Japanese, and thankfully there are just as many gender dodges in it as in English- maybe even a few more. Especially since pronouns are often omitted entirely when the subject is clear to the listener, and when referring to someone it's common to use their name rather than a pronoun (ie: 'Fish-san's book' as opposed to 'his book').
     
    #18 wandering i, Nov 28, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  19. PurpleCrab

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    nah the penis is masculine in French: Un pénis. But yeah everything is gendered. Makes a nightmare for other people to learn it..
     
  20. wandering i

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    My bad, I heard that somewhere but I don't know French at all. And thank god Japanese isn't gendered on top of everything else... haha

    I think this is where I heard that:
    http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/bt/benzaie/specials/10528-fl
    ps- it's meant to be offensive humor, so there is some sexist language, sorry!
     
    #20 wandering i, Nov 28, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012