Pick-and-choose justification-homosexuality and the bible

[crimsonarcher]

An organization called Soul Force has put together a response to a lot of the religious arguments against being gay. It's called, "What the Bible Does-And Doesn't Say About Homosexuality."

It identifies numerous passages where the bible condemns sex practice that have nothing to do with homosexuality. Many of these passages also demand very strict punishments for those who engage in the acts described.

Here is a partial list:

-If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately. Deuteronomy 22:13-21
-If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death. Deuteronomy 22:22
-Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced. Mark 10:1-12
-The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.Leviticus 18:19
-If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir. Mark 12:18-27
-If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her. Deuteronomy 25:11-12

-If someone tells you, "The bile says its a sin to be gay," You might want to ask them if they also think the things mentioned above are sins that should be met with the extreme punishments described.

[Behling]

People who are bible fanatics do often read it selectively

[beckyg]

I have that booklet! It is great!

[Brett]

OMG! That's like those passages in Laviticus that say its makes a woman "unclean" to have her period.

[BloodyRose3000]

People who will defend the anti-gay-biblical position will argue that since there was a new covenant w/ Jesus, it's the rules from the new testament specifically that they have to follow. With that being said, it would be interesting if someone had a list of like-passages from the new testament.

[fragomatrick]

People read only what they want to. Its like school. You don't like something, you wouldn't learn!

[Moonstrike]

Originally Posted by BloodyRose3000

it would be interesting if someone had a list of like-passages from the new testament.

I believe that there are some from 'Paul' or 'Peter' or whatever. I so cant be bothered to try and find them though.

[musicgirl112233]

I used some of those agruements in my research paper about gay marrige.

[Fintan]

Originally Posted by BloodyRose3000

People who will defend the anti-gay-biblical position will argue that since there was a new covenant w/ Jesus, it's the rules from the new testament specifically that they have to follow. With that being said, it would be interesting if someone had a list of like-passages from the new testament.

Belief in the 'new covenant' has nothing to do with arguing for or against homosexuality. It is a core Christian belief. Heck, the Bible is divided into an "Old Testament" (Old Covenant) and a "New Testament" (New Covenant). The entire Christian faith is based on the fact that Jesus brought a way to be 'saved' to the world, based on but not restricted to the laws of the prophets - this is the 'new covenant'.

That said, of the above quotes (which only come from 3 of 40+ books of the bible) -- The Book of Mark is the New Testament (new covenant), and Deuteronomy and Leviticus are Old Testament (old covenant).

I find it so painful to argue against those that believe that the Bible preaches against homosexuality when another gay will chime in with something like "Well do you eat seafood, the bible is against that" (not true for Christians).... Its fine to say that many anti-gay Christians read the Bible selectively -- but unfortunately, so do so many pro-gay Christians.

[peaceandlies]

Well, my parents are christians, and they are openly supportive, and secretly phobic. Anyway, they say that the fact that it isnt confirmed in the new testament means that its not wrong. (Blablabla, please. I dont actually care what they think about which gender I screw)

[malachite]

ah, more ammo.

I actually love it when people try to use God as a sword to slay everyone they don't like, its so easy to make them look like an ass.

[Revan]

^ this.

[ArcaneVerse]

People want to believe what they want to believe simple as that, it does not matter really whether they have divine evidence or not to justify it, although it helps. It is also their right to do so, even if you or anyone else disagrees with their beliefs.

We believe that being gay isn't a choice when there is no real evidence to base this on, its not really any different to how the Christian religion works, you just happen to not like what they believe in.

Now I don't mean to piss anyone off by saying that, its just the truth in my eyes. We have the same right as they do to practice and preach the things we believe in, hopefully in a respectful manner in regards to others views.

[Chandra]

Originally Posted by ArcaneVerse

It is also their right to do so, even if you or anyone else disagrees with their beliefs.

And it is just as much our right to dispute their ideas.

Originally Posted by ArcaneVerse

We believe that being gay isn't a choice when there is no real evidence to base this on, its not really any different to how the Christian religion works, you just happen to not like what they believe in.

There is actually a metric ton of scientific evidence (never mind plenty of anecdotal accounts from actual gay people) that being gay is biological in nature, and thus not a choice.

Originally Posted by ArcaneVerse

We have the same right as they do to practice and preach the things we believe in, hopefully in a respectful manner in regards to others views.

The difference is that we aren't trying to use our "beliefs" to tell other people how to live their lives. Nor are we contributing to a toxic social environment that is hostile to a particular minority group, thereby leading to violence, bullying, suicide, etc.

Don't forget that the word "abomination" which is used to describe homosexuality did not mean sin during that time. It meant against tradition. Just like how mixing fabrics and eating shell fish are abominations.

[Fintan]

I don't know.

I'm gay and I am a practicing Christian. I guess I was just lucky to grow up in the Anglican/Episcapalian Church which is very-near permitting Gay Union Blessings (maybe not Marriage quite yet) in both Canada and the United States. Heck at the last vote in Canada it was so close (lost by 4 votes), that the next vote it will pass. But even more encouraging than this, the people of New Hampshire recently elected the FIRST EVER Openly-Gay Bishop, who lives with his partner in the house provided for him by the Church. Don't see that too often. (Moreover, the Anglican/Episcapal Church in Canada and America are both currently under PROBATION, for being too supportive of Gay Rights, by the over-arching Worldwide Anglican Communion and they have basically said, "we don't care" ^^)

Anyway, for me, God's message is not focused on the rules set forth by individual prophets. It's the message that is clear in His new covenant with man (New Testament). For me, the ten commandments are the best example of understanding this theme. There are 10 Commandments, but they can all be summed up with telling us to do one of these things:
1. Love God.
2. God Loves You.
3. Love Your Neighbour As Yourself.

Anyone picking up the theme here? A Christian that believes their faith directs them to do anything other than love should reflect on all of the times that Jesus showed hate to anyone (0).

[ArcaneVerse]

Originally Posted by Chandra

And it is just as much our right to dispute their ideas.

Did I say you didn't have the right? no I did not so please don't pretend I did. I'm just saying everyone is entitled to their own opinions, views, beliefs. You do have the right to disagree and dispute those things but it works both ways, remember that, because a lot of the GLBT community forget it and yes I've probably forgotten it before also, there is also a proper way to go about it that is respectful and mature.

Originally Posted by Chandra

There is actually a metric ton of scientific evidence (never mind plenty of anecdotal accounts from actual gay people) that being gay is biological in nature, and thus not a choice.

There are theory's, nothing more nothing less. There are just as many to back up the bible and anecdotal accounts from actual Christians. It doesn't mean a thing, until there is factual proof.

Originally Posted by Chandra

The difference is that we aren't trying to use our "beliefs" to tell other people how to live their lives. Nor are we contributing to a toxic social environment that is hostile to a particular minority group, thereby leading to violence, bullying, suicide, etc.

No? I think there are some news reports and other things that say other wise (maybe not to the extend of suicide but it is possible). Not everyone acts that way but a lot do, just the same with Christians. The gay community isn't all innocence and being victimised.

You should try to see things from a different perspective once in a while, try to see the whole picture without the obstruction of your bias.

[Mogget]

The verse generally used to show NT disapproval of homosexuality is Romans 1:26-27

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet.

There are other verses (I believe in I Corinthians and Jude--maybe Timothy) that also imply disapproval. Of not in the Romans 1 verse is that homosexuality is God's punishment, if people sin, He turns them gay!

[MoiMoi]

All of the proof-text verses in the New Testament are, when read in context, clearly referring to practices that were part of pagan temple worship--temple prostitution and the like were important elements in the worship of certain pagan deities. Early Christians were instructed that they weren't supposed to engage in those practices because you can't worship both the God of the Bible and pagan deities.

[Chandra]

Originally Posted by ArcaneVerse

There are theory's, nothing more nothing less. There are just as many to back up the bible and anecdotal accounts from actual Christians. It doesn't mean a thing, until there is factual proof.

Yes, there are theories. Theories based on evidence. Lots of it. And if you really believe there are just as many equally valid theories based on equally valid evidence to back up stories in the Bible, we might as well end this line of discussion here because I simply and fundamentally disagree with that notion.

Originally Posted by ArcaneVerse

No? I think there are some news reports and other things that say other wise (maybe not to the extend of suicide but it is possible). Not everyone acts that way but a lot do, just the same with Christians. The gay community isn't all innocence and being victimised.

Show me one news story that describes how the gay community has spread hurtful and offensive misinformation about another group of people, leading to a social environment where violent attacks, suicide and even murder are so commonplace as to be found in the news on a weekly basis, and I will concede you this point. Of course every group of people has its unsavory element, but there is no way you can seriously argue that the gay community is on the same level with numerous outspoken, bigoted Christian groups.

Originally Posted by ArcaneVerse

You should try to see things from a different perspective once in a while, try to see the whole picture without the obstruction of your bias.

And you should try not to make such obnoxiously condescending assumptions about people you have never met.