How do you feel when a member of the gay community calls thereself a poofter or a dyke etc? Also, if I was dressed in a particularly butch way one day, if I were to say, 'I'm looking particularly dykey today', or if I said to a gay friend, 'that shirt makes you look like a right fruit'. It would all be meant in a completely harmless and friendly way,but still, do you think it would be harmful mockery, or would you feel entitled to say these things because you are also gay? Also, do you believe in reclamation of harmful terminology? For example, and I'll use a different one to gay: I don't like hearing black people calling themselves the n word. This is because I still hear it used as an insult by others and I think it's degrading and unpleasant. This however is my opinion of the word and the black person concerned may not think the same. Having said all that though, firstly, how can a word be fully reclaimed to the point where somebody is comfortable to identify theirself with it if it is still being used as a weapon to hurt them? Secondly, If a person thinks that a word has been reclaimed sufficiently to identify theirself using it, such as the n word for example, then surely they should be comfortable with other none minority people using it, as long as it isn't meant in a harmful way. Difficult one... Personally I'd say it was all about who says it and how it is intended. That only goes for the gay thing though, because I am part of that. As for the n word thing, I don't like to hear it, not even from a black person. That word can be wiped out of existance for me because I hate it.
The bold, I agree with. Personally I believe words to have as much negative power as they are given. However I do not feel I am entitled to use any words, to me saying it's OK for me to say something but not OK for someone else, just because they're different to me, is building a lovely gap between myself and the other person. If I'm going to use a word, they should be able to use a word. I care not about the word but the meaning behind it. I quite often use words others would perhaps find derogatory to refer to myself in any given situation as they hold no meaning for me other than the fact they're a word and I'm going to use it. When it comes to using certain words around others I tend to lean towards caution being a good thing. If we have a good relationship, if I know them, then I'll most likely call them all the words under the sun that they were comfortable with. Then again some words mean different things to different people. I do not associate fruit with being gay, but then I do not associate queer with being gay either. So I have found myself in situations where someone has taken offence and it has left me completely bewildered as to why. I find that my choice of words, and whether I am willing to use them in unknown company, has been fashioned by encounters with others and how they react. Whilst I, personally, think meaning rather than words should dictate whether they are used I am learning that others do not hold this view. What I may believe to be harmless banter others may view as belittling all the work that has been done to move away from those terms. Even, dare I say it, racial terms. Mostly because I'm a terrible person who became perplexed as to how individuals had become so fixated on certain terms that they wished to erase them from history as if they never existed. Whereas I, as a jackass, thinks erasing such a past is removing the backdrop to why it was necessary for people to make a stand in the first place. I also believe that if someone is going to reclaim a word it should not be unacceptable for one subsection of society to use it but not another. Personally, and obviously this is a biased and ridiculous view, if you are going to reclaim a word then reclaim it. Reclaim it and make everyone know that such a word has no power, that it's a collection of letters and if others think it's an insult then good luck to them on their quest to insult people. But then it depends on how you view words. Some see a word and see what led to the word becoming unacceptable, and as we (try to) move forward such words should become museum pieces. An example of times gone by, before people knew any better, before people realised the pain that was associated with being viewed in such a way. Some people do not. This goes for any type of slur. Or, long story short, I read the room. As much as I may believe that words have as much power as they're given, I recognise that a lot of people give a lot of words a great deal of power and it would be disrespectful of me to use those words in front of them.
Related topic: About Being Considered "Retarded" - YouTube Personally, I don't think words can be bad. The intended meaning is what's bad, not the word itself.
I don't like the idea of "reclaiming" offensive words. It still implies that it's an offensive word, just that "those people" can't use it offensively.
Ive seen a few threads in the past couple weeks dealing with offensive words and when, if it all, or by who, if by any, would their use be considered acceptable. Ive been wanting to add my two cents to the conversation. So sorry if I'm a little too wordy or going a little off the question that this thread is asking, I cant help it. I am so fascinated by how people interact with each other, its a favorite thing for me to discuss, and I certainly have a lot of thoughts about it. Its one thing to openly use some of the words Im about to use in a conversation about words and society. But to put it out there from the start, I do not use derogatory words to describe myself or other people who might be in the same social / racial / sexual classifications as me. But it does not automatically bother me when I see other people using them in those contexts. And of course it bothers me when I see people using these words to inflict pain or hate on others. I agree with the idea that the harm in words comes not just from the word itself but how it is used. One of my older sisters is a linguist and I remember when she was in college, during one of her classes the teacher told them to create a derogatory word and use it, see if anyone reacted to it. She decided the words "jeep" and "clock" sounded like they could be derogatory words and i remember shed say "Get out of my room, you clock!" or I'd be walking with her, and shed point to a row of cars, sort of huff and then say "since when did they start letting jeeps park on this block?" or "Youre acting like such a jeep right now!"I mean a clock or a jeep is not an offensive word or an offensive thing really to be compared to, but it was with that tone she used and the way that she used it to describe something as if it didnt belong there, really made me react to that word in the same way i would if she were pointing to people and calling them whatever derogatory word you want to use. Now my sister has nothing against jeeps, Id like to think she believes in vehicular equality, and it was just an exercise for class, but the word jeep has always stayed in my mind as if it were a bad word to use. I think on some level we all want to be accepted and feel like we fit in. Words like nigger, fag, dyke, retard, chink, spic, kike, bitch, whatever, are often used to say "You're different, not only from me, but from the norm of society. My normalcy and your difference makes me have a power of over you." Like with the example of my sister using jeep and clock as if they were bad words, I dont think its the word itself that is so painful for people to hear, its that sentiment behind it (or in her case, the sentiment she pretended (convincingly to me) to have). If instead of using fag to describe gay men, people said bag or rag or anything else, that word would still hold the same burn as fag when its being used against you to make you feel like you're different, unwelcome, or subnormal. Of course, on the other hand, its important to keep in mind the etymology of derogatory terms, as they are not really just random words. Like nigger stems from latin for black, and there was a time when the word nigger was the accepted term for whites to refer to black people. Not that long ago the term negro or colored was acceptable term to describe blacks in the US, now most people say black. Why did nigger become seen as one of the most offensive words in the english language, that many people will even refuse to write or say in the context of a discussion of the word? How did negro become an unacceptable word to describe black people? Why is black an acceptable term? Why is colored bad, but people of color, not? Why is it that we even refer to black people as black, but wouldnt call asians yellow people? Asians arent actually yellow, but black people are also not actually black... just as whites are not actually white. I think when questions like that are asked, and then answered, and understood, it becomes more clear that the issue is not just with the words, its with the sentiment and connotations behind their usage. When derogatory terms are used within a community the same critical thinking needs to applied. Is there not a difference if a masculine acting gay guy calls a more feminine acting gay guy a fag, is that better, equal to, or worse than if it were two feminine acting guys referring to each other as fags, or if a straight man called one a fag? Or is there not a difference between a dark skinned black person being called a nigger by another dark skinned black person, versus when a dark skinned black person is called it by a light skinned black person, or a person who is not black. What about mixed people calling each other nigger? My father was dark skinned, a black hispanic mix, but because my features are more asian than black, is it less socially acceptable for me to use nigger than a person who is also mixed but has darker skin? And I wouldnt say that reclaiming a word makes it automatically empowering either. Im struggling to think of even one instance where I have actually heard the word fag or nigger used in an empowering sense. I have a friend who has told me, when hes been called a fag, he'll shout back, "yeah I am a fag, so what?" I dont really see that as empowering, more like trying to send the message that he will not be made to feel ashamed because hes different from the norm. Maybe thats empowering, I don't know, people might disagree with me about that. I just cant imagine any group who seriously wants to be accepted using terms like that to describe themselves to the broader society. While they may help ease the burn the words carry with them, I personally think theres way too much historical baggage associated with them to really be used as tools of actual empowerment for various groups of people. I also find it a little silly to say that if black people can say nigger, or gay people can say fag, or lesbians can say dyke, without offensive connotations, then people outside of those groups should be able to use them too, so long as that offensive connotation is not there. Yeah its a double standard, but its a double standard with some serious historical and contemporary social reasons to back it up. Yes, words like these are being reclaimed and being used, but only because when used within a distinct community, they are not words that signal a difference, or subordination. I think a lot of people arent bothered by that almost balanced use of offensive words. Using derogatory words in that context is like saying, yes this is considered an offensive word, but it applies to us both, we are in this together, and we can use it without offending each other. Its when theres even a hint that a distinction is being made between the person using the word and the person being described by the word, that is when people get upset. Personally, I love the discussion of words and human interaction, and some of the unwritten laws of society. Im glad that some people chose to identify with words once used to bring them down. Because they keep these words alive, and they make them more complex, and more interesting. I think the people who truly want words like these to completely disappear are people who want to believe that we live in a society where all people are treated and viewed as equals - and so we should talk to each other as if it were true as well. And as beautiful of a thought as that is, its just not true. None of these words should disappear from our language, because they carry with them our history and the history of our interactions and struggles and triumphs. Its awesome to me that they spark conversations and get people talking about them, their historical contexts, and their current usages. These are important, important parts of society I believe. In this way, any derogatory term can be empowering, because it does carry that weight. You get rid of cunt or bitch, you dont get rid of misogyny. You get rid of nigger or fag, you dont get rid of racism or homophobia. The only hope we have of actually moving towards ending these things does not begin with censorship, it begins with communication.
:eusa_clap Very good words, all above! I wish I could put it so eloquently. The words can stick around, but what needs to be gone are the negative connotations behind them.
I take great amusement in words and phrases like "poofter", "light in the loafers" and such, and I use them all the time. I also use "Friend of Dorothy" (a very dated term) to refer to gay friends... "Oh, he's a Friend of Dorothy"... And my friends and I all say things like "Wow, that was really faggy" or, when someone does something stereotypically gay, yell out "Fag." Ditto with "dyke" or "carpet muncher" or whatever other lesbian terms there are. The words have the power we give to them. If someone yells out "faggot" at me, I basically laugh, because... really... is that all they can come up with? Is that what they're going to put their energy into? The words only have negative energy toward me if I allow them to. But... I do think, in order to get to that place, one has to be pretty comfortable with oneself, and that can take some time.
Wow, some really interesting responses. DSS, very interesting post I thought, I really enjoyed reading it. It's always interesting to read what different people think about this subject. I'm very into words, I love them and how they are used and recieved by different people is something I find facinating. On reflection, I do take the point of a few of the posters that words should always remain because they are a reminder of our history. I guess I just hate hearing them used. It's a sad fact that as long as certain derogatory terms exist, they will always be used to hurt. But by the same token, as long as communities such as this one exist, we can all take strength from eachother and lessen their power to harm.
