1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

This concept of sin

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Hexagon, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. Hexagon

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    8,558
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Earth
    Why do we have to have this concept of sin? It seems to be so damaging. I recognise causing harm, restricting rights and freedoms etc. and bad, and the everything else as fine. But the idea that something like homosexuality or mixing fabrics can be sinful without being harmful to anyone is just plain ridiculous, and (I think) it's something we need to get over as a society.
     
  2. Eliza

    Eliza Guest

    I don't have anything to add, but I agree. Original sin is especially messed up. There's an entire religion based on the idea that human beings are all inherently rotten to the core from birth and you've got to be afraid of every thing that makes you feel good because it's probably evil... that's pretty cynical, right?
     
  3. TheUglyBarnacle

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Messages:
    299
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Greece
    I couldn't agree more.
     
  4. gibson234

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    1,135
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    UK,Wales
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    It's just religions way of trying to control your life. If you feel guilty about "sinning" then your more likely to go to church and put money on the collection plate.
     
  5. Fiddledeedee

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2011
    Messages:
    955
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    England
    I don't think "sin" is a useful concept. We can generally tell what begets happiness and knowledge; do these things. We can generally tell what begets harm; don't do these things. If you bring in the idea of sin, it gets a lot more complicated, and illogical, and taboo, and guilt-filled, and absolute. When things which do not beget harm are called sinful, or when things which do beget harm are called not sinful, the world becomes I think a worse place.

    Disagreeing about what does and does not cause harm is of course fine. Just back up your views as much as you can. This leads to a fairer moral code with its feet firmly in reality, and is something which can be tested, improved upon, shared with those of other or no religion, and so on. We can all learn from these discussions about what is and isn't good, and I think we can learn better if we don't bring up concepts like sin.

    Rotten to the core to the point where (in some/many/most denominations of Christianity) you deserve to burn in Hell forever -- infinite pain, eternal torment -- from birth, for nothing that you've done or are in fact capable of doing. (I say you are incapable of doing anything to deserve Hell because we are finite beings, and therefore can only do finite crimes, so we can never deserve infinite punishment. This means that you must have been born deserving the punishment.) If you didn't deserve it, then a loving and just god would destroy Hell and simply allow those who would have gone there to cease existing.

    I don't think that we're all so inherently evil and messed up.

    And I hope this post made sense. I had a fauxlosophising session last Sunday about constructing a moral code and my head is still swimming. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
    #5 Fiddledeedee, Apr 30, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  6. TheUglyBarnacle

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Messages:
    299
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Greece
    Fiddledeedee, that post makes A LOT OF sense. I wish everyone could read it and see the logic in it.
     
  7. myheartincheck

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    2,461
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    The Golden State with a Golden Gate
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I'm going to play "devil's" advocate here.

    Having a concept of sin has humbled me a lot. There are some atrocious events (call it what you will-harm, sin, whatever) in this world and it has inspired me to help others who are victims of abuse. It has helped me to accept that nobody is perfect and we are all fighting an invisible battle... one for us to be the best that we can be even when we aren't motivated to do anything.

    I think pointing out others faults is not helpful to anyone. I wish that all faiths and beliefs could coexist peacefully, but I know it's not realistic.
    I totally see everyone's point of view, but I think it's about what you DO with the concept of sin. It can be used with evil intent just like anything else can.

    You and I are all on the same side. Saying someone's life or beliefs is wrong is not acceptable behavior~<3
     
  8. greatwhale

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,582
    Likes Received:
    413
    Location:
    Montreal
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I've always understood religion as an instruction manual for life. Sort of like an instruction manual for bomb disposal experts:

    "cut wire A which is located under bracket C (so you cut it)...but first..."

    All kidding aside, life is a damn complicated business, and many, many minds have worked on the problem of "how to live".

    Today the chief value is happiness and not hurting others, but religion is older than that. It arises from the timeless need for an answer to the most burning question of all: what is this existence all about, it's the big WHY? It needs an answer...so religion came along with its claims: there is a God, who is and is not a part of this world and what you do will have an effect on how this God will treat you.

    From this understanding came laws of conduct: good deeds and sins. Good deeds promoted peace and happiness, sins detracted from this. One pleases God or one displeases God, so we are taught to fear God so that we will not sin.

    Organized religions required a civilization, normally starting out as agrarian where people could settle somewhere and build societies in one place. Religion was also trying to find a way for people to live together and build a better community with laws and rules.

    Without religion there would be no law. It's important to understand this, I think we can all agree that a society needs laws and it needs rules. Some rules can no longer apply meaningfully because the goals of that society have changed whereas the rules have not.

    Throughout history, religion has served the highest ends of man, and has created the laws that have sustained conscience and morality. The claims and laws of religion are based on the faith that if they are kept and observed, things will turn out right...and who's to say, the chain of causality in complex real life is so murky in any given situation, it is easy to just give up trying to understand and follow the ancient laws.

    But it is a mistake, clearly homosexuality is here to stay, it cannot be wished away, the great mistake of religion is to stop trying to reconcile these two opposing views and to harden stances on both sides of the divide.

    I have argued elsewhere that it is easy to criticize religion, but I would argue here that one should first understand what one is criticizing and one should at least try to engage with it as many LGBT-friendly congregations have tried to do.

    My 3 cents.
     
  9. Pain

    Pain Guest

    Fiddledeedee FTW <3

    Anywho, I find the concept of sin rather nebulous. Like most people have said, too often is it used to only shame people for doing some things, and adds to taboos. However, I believe that the only sins are lying to oneself and harming others with malice.
     
  10. Gaysibling

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    334
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Well, to be honest, we don't have to have it.

    Ask any atheist :icon_bigg . I have never 'believed' in sin and I am perfectly happy in my life.... and no, just because I don't have big brother god looming over me telling what I can and cannot do it doesn't mean that I go around doing bad things to people.

    You don't need sin to stop you from doing that, just a sense of right and wrong and in spite of what all the different religions claim on behalf of all their different gods it is perfectly possible to know right from wrong without following any particular god or subscribing to silly notions such as 'sin'.

    Free yourself up, discard the notion of sin. :thumbsup:
     
  11. Argentwing

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2012
    Messages:
    6,696
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    New England
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Ask a religious nut a "why" question, and you are more likely to have a lucrative career winning the lottery every week than getting a satisfying answer. Things are because the church says they are. The church says they are because they have interpreted the bible to say they are. The bible says they are because its authors were inspired by God. Oops! End of the line. You can't question God's will. So you go on believing that mixed fabrics somehow work to the detriment of His kingdom, and you should be punished for it.

    Don't get me wrong; I'm not an atheist. But I believe God has given us the power of critical thinking so that we may use it. :wink:
     
    #11 Argentwing, Apr 30, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  12. malachite

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Orlando
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    we can only speculate what events caused the "sin" and "rules" to end up in the Bible. Maybe they didn't want trading taking place certain places to mixing those fabics was deamed "sinnful" or maybe there were too many farmers and they whole not growing 2 crops in one fields was a way to keep their economy going.

    Problem is you can't take an ideal from 2000 years ago call some parts outdated but hold the other up like divine law.

    Plus the Bible argument is used by people who don't like us gays in the first place. They have an opinion then look for "facts" to back the opinion up, instead of using facts to form an opinion.
     
  13. Eliza

    Eliza Guest

    This. So much this.
     
  14. Ridiculous

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2010
    Messages:
    3,583
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Don't be absurd. I sincerely hope that religion isn't the only thing keeping you from killing and stealing and raping - if your opinion of humanity is so low that you think we can't realise when we shouldn't be doing something without having the imaginary threat of damnation hanging over us, then there is no point arguing with you.

    Also you've done the traditional religious apologist trick of stating something, and then offering something that isn't actually supporting evidence but pretending it is and hoping your audience doesn't notice. Just because laws are 'good' and religion gives us some arbitrary laws, doesn't mean that religion is good.

    And just as an amusing little fact: The Vatican city, a state that is entirely founded on religion, has the highest crime rate in the world. Interesting.

    Don't insult other people by telling them they can't control themselves without religion.
     
  15. greatwhale

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,582
    Likes Received:
    413
    Location:
    Montreal
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I am not so naïve to think that religion is what is keeping people from killing, raping or stealing from each other. My point in the quote was that religion provided a lot of the foundation for the law that we are under today. For example, there are pages and pages of Talmudic discussions from thousands of years ago on private and public domains (and they go into excruciating detail on the subject); ostensibly for the purpose of deciding where things could or could not be carried on the Sabbath; but these principles have founded some pretty basic concepts of public and private spheres in modern jurisprudence as well.

    Also, there are tremendous insights on the human condition, For example, the Talmudic scholars understood and agreed that no one could guarantee (in a court of law) the sexual behaviour of another person.

    I have no love lost for religion, I have simply outgrown it, and perhaps as a society we have outgrown it too. I am not calling religion good, I am stating that religion has done a lot of good things, as well as a lot of bad. I do not subscribe to the idea of eternal damnation either, I no longer believe that what I do will somehow lead to perdition. I was providing context, not an apology.

    Carl Jung said once that we are in a time of bad philosophy and bad religion, and we are all suffering from an inadequate understanding of both. My point here is that it is too easy to condemn something outright that has provided, and continues to provide, a certain comfort to most of humanity. It arises from a religious impulse that pervades humanity. The big question of WHY remains fundamentally unanswered, there are only unsubstantiated and completely unprovable claims and beliefs about what is expected of us here on this earth and why it is that we suffer.

    Religion today is inadequate for today's context, bizarre at times (for example, the laws of schatnes regarding the mixing of wool and flax mentioned above), and very hard for many of our contemporaries to accept. Alternatively, there are many who are seeking some form of "spirituality" and end up being involved in some other strange manifestations of the religious impulse (Scientology anyone?).

    Outrageous claims against the LGBT community, in the name of religion, are an absolute insult not only to us, but to the founding principles of these religions. It seems to me that the best approach for us is to argue against them with their own book.

    My even stronger point, to quote Sun Tzu from his Art of War is: know your enemy.
     
    #15 greatwhale, Apr 30, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013