Proselytism

I had to google what it meant Its converting people to religions right?

Id say its fine, as long as its not taking advantage of the vulnerable or when people are in vulnerable positions.

For example people being shown god is the cure to their problems, if it helps them then fine, but i feel a person needs to be rational before its morally acceptable to try to convert them.

 

I had to google it too. But what's wrong with it? Quite a lot.

I don't like people interfering with my life. I don't like people telling me what to do. And given my stance on religion in general, I really don't like people coming to my door to try and to convert me to their beliefs.

I encourage people, from the bottom of my heart, to do as they please and to live life the way they want to, but please don't try to impose your beliefs on me. You have your life and I have mine, okay?

 

In practice they target vulnerable and easy targets and play on their fear of the unknown and fear of death with what are essentially threats, which is almost always the last thing they need to be dealing with at the time.

It's an awful sight to see some holier-than-thou woman with her nose in the air walking around a hospital, going up to 80-year-olds near death and vaguely telling them they are going to burn in hell forever unless they 'repent'.

 

I identify myself as extreme left wing, somewhere in democratic socialism. It is true that alot of very left wing people dont like religion. It is seen (rightly so in my opinion) as a corrupting factor on humanity, and one of the things that changes our naturally good natured programming. The soviet union and i believe china presently identify themselves as atheist nations and dont allow religion (in theory).

Live and let live as they say though. I dont believe in telling anyone what to do, and it can help people, to believe whatever happens is part of a grand master plan and tht they have someone with them to talk to them any time.

For me i believe in karma, what goes arround comes arround. Keeps me in line

 

I think that it is fine, but not for children. I believe, even though I am religious, that to bring a child up in a religion is far too restricting; I was nearly raised Catholic, but I was not taught a religious belief, and adopted Lutheranism. The most disgusting act imaginable with conversions, is to go to places like the Congo, and give charity on the condition of conversion to poor, starving, or otherwise unfortunate people.

 

I think it's a religions right to try and get out there...but how they do it and why doesn't make sense. It's also scary.

I was at school once, sitting by myself. I was approached by a guy and a girl. I thought the guy looked like a friend of Dorothy, so I assumed I was finally going to be asked out and he must have brought a friend.

Haha. "Hi, what's your name?...........cool, can we talk about Jesus?"

I was shocked. I definitely felt zoned out. What was weird was they went to a few tables down, which happened to be occupied by another obvious friend of Dorothy.

It could just be my thinking, but I can't stand when certain folks are zoned out. That's what's wrong. And the main problem with the whole thing is this should be about wanting to join - not because you need to be saved or you need to come fill up a collection plate.

 

I get this quite a lot. I'm a liberal person, and I meet many people who have a double standard about opinions; they may turn others away from religion, but churches may not convert others. They may give their opinion, but conservatives must stay silent (even on issues that have good points both ways). I think it is stupidly hypocritical to turn people away from religion, but claim proselytism is immoral.

 

I believe that people should not actively proselytize, but rather make the information available. If someone doesn't want to convert, leave it at that, and don't push it. If they do want to convert, the belief and system will be at their disposal.

 

I like the point you're making here. Children should be taught what is true and what is not, they should have access to scientific knowledge, but there's a difference between teaching them about true things, and convincing them about things that can't be proved. True things are... well, proved by science to be true, therefore impossible to question in a serious way. But there is no way on earth you can proof religion to be true, and that is why I feel like it should have no place in the educational system. People should be able to decide for themselves what life they want to live, and not having things that cannot be proved being imposed on them.

I'm not going to lie - you're right about that. People shouldn't tell others what to believe, or how to live their lives. I feel like a meaningful discussion about (in this case) beliefs might be good for those interested, but please let it be a discussion between the people who are actually interested in it only. Organise a debate about the subject or something. But I'm opposed to the idea of randomly approaching unwilling strangers with your values and beliefs, either on the streets or going door to door. I don't go around telling people religion is a bad thing either, that would be quite a shameless thing to do. Live and let live.

And while we're on the subject - I'm also opposed to people walking around the streets collecting money for charity. If I want to donate to charity (which I do monthly), I don't need people convincing me their cause is the best and guilt tripping me into giving money. I'm perfectly able to pick my own causes, causes for which I feel comfortable donating.



Sidenote: I can't believe I'm actually trying to make a comprehensive post at 2:40am after quite some beers

 

Aussie, I have a lot of respect for you, but I feel like it's a bit unfair to say there's a double standard. The reason I feel that's unfair is that the liberal mind has too much emphasis on tolerating the intolerant. Some proselytizers are good. Some are evil, because they promote views which encite violence (through the legal, economic and medical systems) and discrimination against vulnerable groups of people.

I think that we need to find a space to say there's something problematic about that. If, as liberals, we're forced to step aside and "live and let live" about stuff like this, we're effectively saying that we can't fight back until the enemy has actually breached the castle walls.

That may be a way of being ideologically consistent, but I don't think it's a way of advancing humanity by reducing human suffering. Shouldn't that be the goal of all politics.

 

C'mon Devious Kitty, you know that the religious proselytism many of us despise is not a simple delivery of a paper or a public speech or a highway sign on why you should believe in such-and-such, like your global warming example. It is banging on people's doors, it is using money/charity on the poor or vulnerable to basically bribe someone to accept your religious views, it is instilling fear on the uneducated or ignorant that unless they act a certain way, they will burn in this unknown place called hell for all eternity. Then with kids, it's mass/temple/mosque every week, sunday school or catechism or whatever, it's the brainwashing through fear of young minds before they know how to think for themselves, etc.

It totally has to do with the manner in which it takes place, not the act itself. How else can we explain the massive, massive numbers of people who belong to these groups and believe in myths such as Noah's Ark or the earth being created in 7 days or dying as a martyr so you can fuck 72 virgins in heaven.

 

This. Telling me about your religion? Sure, sounds interesting. Telling me that it is impossible for me to be happy and moral without your religious beliefs? Offensive as hell. I don't want to think about the amount of proselytizing my family and church would do if I ever told them I'm not Christian. They would keep trying to convince me that I am evil and miserable without their religion.

 

If religious people want to try to persuade adults to join their religion that is ok (although I personally find it irritating to be on the receiving end of it) Adults have the capacity to consider the pros and cons and make up their minds on the subject.

However, religion, like pornography, should be marked 'adults only'. It really upsets me to see children being exploited by religions - they should be left to decide for themselves when they are adults whether they want a religion, and if so, which one they want to choose.

It is a bit rich that religious people often accuse gays of 'recruiting'... well, I was born gay, but no one is born religious. By default I was considered to be a 'christian', no one asked me whether I wanted to be. I was just very fortunate that my parents were not bullies about it. When I made it clear that I found the whole business quite silly and that I had no interest in wasting my sunday mornings at church they respected my right to choose for myself. Lots of children are not so fortunate.

Of course one of the problems with religion is that so often the religious are not content to simply present their beliefs and leave people to make up their own minds. Over the centuries coercion and terror have been used by some of the bigger religions, in particular christianity and islam to convert people when persuasion has failed.

Religious people often accuse atheists of being aggressive and intolerant, but they never seem to ask themselves who the role models for that aggression and intolerance were in the first place... if I am aggressive and intolerant it is because the church forced that lesson down my throat when I was still too young to be able to spit it out.

I have met some genuinely nice people who have religious beliefs and I respect them. But I despise organised religion. I always wonder if any of the people at the top of the religious food chain actually believe the stuff they push down other people's throats. Looking at their behaviour I seriously doubt it.

 

Honestly, the reason I hate it is because it annoys me. I've heard so much of it. I also have a problem with people taking advantage of vulnerable people, and converting children before they have a chance to think for themselves.

 

Depends on what is being proselyitised.

if your pushing Ayn Rand, then no.

if you are pushing 'Love one another without question or condition', then yes.