The Words "Homophobe & Bigot" & other things

Yes, people are allowed their own opinion, but let's be honest here - it is the wrong opinion. People shouldn't dislike LGBT people, or black people, or any person for something like this that they don't have control over.

Furthermore it is also usually a learned opinion - people don't magically not like these people on their own unless they have been influenced into not liking these people. It's important that we are vocal and point out that these opinions are wrong so they don't continue to spread; if we just sit here and pretend we can all coexist with completely differing opinions, we end up in the situation that we are in now where one side gets the upper hand and actually makes it illegal.


Can't comment on the civil rights comparison as I don't know a lot about US history. However if you go back 20-30 years or so ago when the LGBT rights movement was first starting, we didn't have the Trevor Project or support groups or a supportive media - they came about as part of the LGBT rights movement. At the start it was pretty grim to be gay and I expect was mostly comparable to how it was for black people in the '50s when the Civil Rights movement was starting to get momentum.

 

When anybody, for any reason, opposed our legal and social rights; they are ignorant and they are bigoted. It doesn't matter whether they actively hate us; to be oppressive is in effect hateful, even if they have "no problem" with us.

 

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinions. And its my opinion that their opinion is hateful, bigoted and oppressive. But more than that, saying that everyone is entitled to their opinions does not justify walking away from a conflict of opinions. Because, as things stand, it is not simply a conflict of opinion, its the fact that law and social convention is on the side of the aforementioned bigots. We can't get married in some places. We can't have sex in some places. We can't hold hands or dress how we want without being mocked or abused in some places. And if we just 'walk away' because others disagree with us, those things will never change, and we will still be oppressed.

 

Holy wall of text, Batman.

 

Hmm. Ok, so what I'm hearing here is that you can pass as straight if you want to. You don't mention how out you are, nor what part of the country you live in. I'd be interested to know these things, because I suspect they are impacting your views here.

For the record, I don't worry about how masculine or not I come across to people, but I'm a pretty good size guy, I've had people tell me I look threatening, and I've had female strangers flirt with me from time to time. So presumably I come across as pretty masculine as well or at least not fitting 'the stereotype'. As it matters.

Also for the record, I'm racially mixed (1/4 black, 3/4 white). I can pretty much pass for white with a tan, although in VA (and the rest of the South) there's this fun thing known as the One Drop Rule (one drop of non-white blood = You are not white) which would have had me being a slave or subject to Jim Crow back in the day. Unless I chose to try to pass, I guess.

As far as whether or not being 'a bit more conservative' is unusual or not for the site, I have no idea. Notions of what = 'conservative' are pretty fluid in my experience. More than once I've encountered people for the Northeast who call themselves conservatives but who then go on to express opinions that would get them roundly denounced as liberal pinko communist socialists who hate freedom and all things good, decent, and American here in Virginia where I live. Go figure.

Hmm. So (just for an example and to sort of tie into your later point re the Civil Rights Movement), if someone were to "kindly" tell you that they are fine with black people as long as they remember their place you'd be fine with that opinion? And you'd argue that all black people should just accept that because it's 'just an opinion'?

How about interracial marriage or dating (actually pretty common here in my part of VA)? If someone were to 'kindly' tell you that they are OK with black people but just really don't like the idea of a black man dating/marrying a white woman would you just shrug that off as 'just an opinion' and feel nothing more about it?

I ask, because when people say they are 'accepting' of LGBT people but then follow it immediately by saying they don't like us 'flaunting' what we are or don't agree with the idea of gay marriage they are basically making the exact same statements as above.

Beyond the obvious issues, there is also the issue that the person making the statement is basically also saying that they have the power (and the right) to decide for you how you can behave or what you can do, with their delicate sensibilities being the only arbiter. They get to decide what is or isn't 'the place' of black people. They get to decide what is or isn't 'flaunting' it. And they get to adjust those standards at will and at their whim.

Perhaps even more problematic is that they also use those 'standards' as a justification for more than something as simple as a purchasing decision (Coke vs Pepsi, it really IS a matter of opinion), but to make laws (or avoid laws) such that they continue to dictate the rights and behavior of an entire group of people. Which in turn translates into things like gay people getting to sit in the waiting room while their partner is in the hospital because they aren't 'next of kin' because their relationship isn't 'real' in the eyes of the law that is, in turn, shaped by those folks who 'accept but don't agree'. Or gay people being beaten up because they were 'flaunting' what they are and the perpetrator gets off clean because the 'accepting but not agreeing' people on the jury feel that the gay person really brought it on themselves, after all. Not sure if the whole 'gay panic' (aka I beat the guy to a pulp because he hit on me or I thought he might so the jury acquits) thing is still in vogue, but it wouldn't surprise me.

What makes you think that these people are simply stopping at expressing an opinion? Do you think they express this opinion but then vote for gay marriage? Do you think they express this opinion and then vote against state amendments that write marriage inequality into their state constitutions? Do you think they express this opinion and then vote to convict the guys who beat a gay man to a pulp or attacked a lesbian couple because (according to the defense) they were 'flaunting' their gayness and provoked the attack?

You talk about simply minding your business. The point you seem to be missing is that other people are more than ready to mind your business for you. And they all have opinions.

I have to wonder how much you will still hold this view if you ever find yourself in the position of not being able to be by your partner's side when they are sick or dying. Or having your home taken away by their family because they just want to and you didn't get around to jumping through all the legal hoops required to prevent it because the state you live in doesn't recognize same-sex marriage. Or watching your attackers walk (if you can see them because they beat you so badly your vision messed up). All because of the 'opinions' of some people.

Like the right to marry for example? It used to be illegal for blacks and whites to marry.

How about we look at some other commonly referenced elements of the Civil Rights Movement:

Being denied housing/accommodation/use of certain facilities because you aren't white. Being denied housing because the landlord thinks/knows you are gay. Being denied use of facilities because you're trans. Being fired for being LGBT.

Being beaten up or lynched because you are black and looked (or were thought to be looking) at a white woman. Being beaten up or lynched because you are gay and hit on the wrong guy (or were thought to be hitting on him. Or at least that was his story). Or were just gay and 'flaunting' it (whatever that means). Of course lynching appears to have gone out of fashion these days. Although Mathew Shepard might disagree with me on that (or his family actually, he's not around to have an opinion unfortunately).

As has been pointed out, those things did not exist when the LGBT rights movement first started. Rather they are a product of that movement. Also, have you looked into the role of black churches during Jim Crow? Or the various black support organizations that existed back then? Not just MLKs organization, but many others? How about the Abolitionist Movement during slavery? How about the Underground Railroad? The limits of technology and the society of the day meant that social networking wasn't an option and that there may not have been as many support groups, but that doesn't meant that the equivalent didn't exist.

Admittedly the comparison between the Black Civil Rights Movement and the current one is not perfect nor 1-to-1 (most Black people can't pass for being anything but Black). But if the Black Civil Rights Movement were happening today it wouldn't be the same as the past one either.

Sorry to be blunt and graphic, but LGBT people have been and/or continue to be beaten/bombed/firehosed/tear gassed/tortured/ and executed, in the US, in Europe, and around the world to this day. Have you looked into whats going on in Russia these days? In Uganda? Have you looked on the News section of this forum and some of the articles that come through there? How about the website for the Southern Poverty Law Center or Human Rights Campaign?

The problem I'm seeing here (and sorry to say this) is that I'm not really getting a sense that you are speaking from a position of having done much, if any, research on your subject matter. Either Black History or Gay History, or Current Events. If you can point to actual references and/or sources to support your views that just didn't get mentioned in your original post then I'll be happy to concede that I'm offbase here (at least partly. Then again I may pull out my own pile of references and counter-examples). But mostly what I'm getting is a sense that you've never really suffered anything more than mild hurt feelings as a result of being either black or gay and so don't really have any visceral understanding of what is being talked about.

See above. The people with the 'opinions' you mention aren't just walking away. They are taking it upon themselves to dictate the lives (and sometimes deaths) of LGBT people. They are often saying horrible insulting things about LGBT people, or at least nodding along while others do so. Excusing that as 'just an opinion' and walking away is a cop out.

The only reason that you have what measure of rights you have as an LGBT person (or a Black person for that matter) is because sometime/somewhere someone decided they weren't just going to walk away/mind their own business but were going to stand up for something. And sometimes they bled for that. Sometimes they died. But if you want to just walk away, then that's your right. They bled and died for that one for you too.

Just my opinion.

Todd

P.S: Regardless of what impression the above may give, I'm not mad at you nor do I dislike you. You just make me sad.

 

The lesbian and gay community is denied in many parts of the world, one of the most basic rights. Marriage. They are also spurned by the Churches- called sinners and abominations. Dare I say it- they, we, have been looked down upon longer than blacks.
Homophobes and bigots have names for us, so it is proper that we have names for them.

*You seem like a very nice person by the way *

 

We label a person a homophobe or a bigot based on their actions.

they label us fags, dykes, queers, and sinners based on their false perceptions of lgbt people.

it is not the same thing.

just because a person is conservative doesnt mean they are a bigot, just as just because a guy is gay doesnt mean he is effiminante.

but if you seek to push your warped interpretation of a religious belief in an attempt to deny the equal rights of a oppressed minority because you want to feel superior even though the actual teaching of your religion says no one is, then yes, you are a bigot.

But just because I am gay, doesnt mean I am a menecing, child hungry pedophile.

 

No worries That said, I'd suggest doing a bit of research and learning more about the gay community. There are many many different types of gay people and many different parts to 'the community', just as there are many many different types of straight people. I'd also suggest finding a local LGBT center, or Meetup group, or other organization and getting to know some real gay people.

You could also ask the folks on EC about what it's like to be gay, or about the accuracy (or not) of what you were taught or are discovering.

One of the nice things about the internet is that it means that you have access to the largest collection of information ever created. A fair chunk of it is BS of course, but with a bit of research you can learn a lot, including about gay history and culture or black history and culture, or whatever.

I also live on the east coast as you can see from my profile. I don't need to know exactly where you live, but wonder if it's in an area that is more diverse and so you might not have encountered some things that people (black or gay) have to deal with elsewhere in the country.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. How can someone say they support equal rights but also be against equal rights at the same time? Not sure I'm understanding you clearly here. Please clarify.

Thanks!

Todd

 

Gigantic. Wall. Of. Text. That. I. Read. Makes. Brain. Hurt.

 

Ah, you said what I wanted to say, but didn't. I congratulate you.