Chivalry, manners, and gay men

Its the duty of everyone to be a good person.

 

If you can help someone, by all means do. It's just that people stereotypically expect gay guys to be weak and unable to help in those situations. Girls can help out too you know. It's no one's duty, but it's nice to help others.

 

Gay men are still men, regardless of any 'women with penises' jokes.

I do find it annoying that being born male or female dictates what behaviors are acceptable, what is 'mandatory' or not. I don't feel obliged to open doors for women simply because I'm male-bodied, but because it's what any generous and compassionate person would do. If say, I'm in a hurry or simply don't feel like it, I won't.

You're over-thinking this. I'm different, in that I'll ask first, usually, but the end result is the same: helping someone for the sake of helping, not because I like them. And yes, plenty of straight guys help women without ulterior motives.

 

People help people because it's the polite thing to do. I think that's how people will interpret your actions when you help someone.

I can't agree that it's "just manners". By makes special efforts to help women, you're saying (if not through your words, through your actions) that they need the help more than men. Chivalry itself is based on the idea that women need the help and assistance of men because they're weaker, so its inherently sexist.

 

I help people if I see they need it, no matter who they are and don't give a second thought about it.

 

I always help women or people of an elder age in need of assistance. My family has always taught me that since I'm a young, able-bodied male it is my duty. I remember one time there was this complete bitch that I held the door open for, she literally gave me the nastiest look and said "what, you think I can't open my own door?"... Wow... anyways, incidently, she left the exact same time I did and I, keeping in mind the reaction earlier, did not give that woman a lick of attention. This time my grandma saw that I let the door close on her and she literally backhanded me...

Moral of the story? I'm glad I like guys cause women suck.

Although, to answer your question, I would say no sexulity doesn't disclude gay men from being chivalrous
I generally look straight though, so I've never had that thought, I always just think people should respect an act of respect and call it good no matter who you are

Edit: Also, Owen, I don't know if you've been to the south or how things are in MA, but here it is very much so considered manners. Gotta love Southern Hospitality...

 

Exactly! But some of these radical feminists don't understand that...

 

Wow... just wow.

 

Sexist is the word that came to my mind straight away, I would do the same for any person in need of help, whether it was a Man or a Woman, the same goes with holding a door open, I have been helped out by a woman on many occasions, whether I have dropped something or needed a door open, chivalry can no longer be a one way street of a Man helping just a woman out, that goes against what equality is all about

 

I'm agreeing with others - chivalry is a sexist idea. I was born and raised in the South, and I've been taught chivalry in church, in school, and in my family. It isn't easy to get rid of the idea that "women are the weaker vessel" but I've slowly come to realize that helping is just helping because I can, not because I feel like someone is weaker than I am.

 

I think you are over thinking it. I lived in Texas for quite a while and the people there are by in large much more helpful and friendly than other places I've been. Consequently I had found myself falling into the same demeanor as my surroundings. I.E. helping the little old ladies fetch items off of the top shelf at the grocery store. After they see how tall I am (6'4") I sometimes get the look from them, in which case I'll ask if they need help. Not more than a few weeks ago an elderly lady asked me to pump her gas at the station because her husband had passed and he had done the very same task for her for the last 50 years or so.

 

This is a wonderful question. First, I just want to say that I think chivalrous behavior and thinking is very important, and we should all integrate more of it into our lives.

Chivalry has become confused for the modern mind. I like to differentiate between historical chivalry and modern chivalry. Unless I'm specifically talking about the historical form, I'm referring to modern chivalry. There have been important feminist criticisms of historical chivalry. Knights of old were basically just soldiers. Soldiers committed war crimes after all. Historical chivalry was supposed to ground them in some kind of positive morality. But their behavior was not always consistent with the requirements. Additionally, historical chivalry existed during a period of more extreme sexism than we have now. It existed during a period of time where women were expected to do nothing, and allowed to do very little.

When one mentions chivalry, it conjures up in the female imagination ostentatious displays of courtesy and patronizing, paternalizing behavior.

Modern chivalry does not call for that at all. Practitioners need to remind others of this fact. The tenets of chivalry are essentially just generosity, compassion, and defense of the vulnerable, rooted in a commitment to clarity, truth, physical and intellectual development. To practice chivalry, in my view, not only requires going the extra distance to be courteous and helpful, but also to be an ambassador. We're trying to show people a way of being; we're trying to show people that it's possible to care about our fellows without having ulterior motives.

We live in a broken society, tainted by predation. People may always have their worries that you have an ulterior motive, but chivalry also requires a certain level of professionalism. You're being courteous. Who cares what they think? Unless the object of your courtesy questions your motives, you don't really have the opportunity to explain yourself, and indeed, why should you? Compassion should need no explanation.

Although the book I recently read on chivalry calls this a "male warrior ethic," I think it's actually just a warrior ethic for everyone, sisters, brothers, ziesters, all. People of all gender identities and sexual orientations should take a look at this philosophy with an open mind and heart.

It's not about heroism or pretending to be a hero. It's not about endulging anachronistic fantasy. It's about all of us trying to rediscover out better selves and calling on one another to participate in defending the beauty in the world.

Your sister,

Adrian

 

I have to agree, I think it IS sexist to specifically only help women because they are weak and delicate flowers while men are supposed to tough and muscular and emotionless, however well-intentioned you might be. It's utterly demeaning to treat all girls as helpless creatures just waiting for a big manly man to come along and save them from their own helplessness. Not saying you shouldn't help the little old grandma who needs help carrying groceries to her car, but do it because it's the right thing to do, to help someone in need, not because you see yourself as some knight in shining armor rescuing a damsel in distress.

And it works in other direction too, with people assuming that because you are "male" you are strong and able to carry heavy things, and if you aren't, that means you are a pathetic failure...out of this sense of obligation, I've always tried to help out with that kinda thing, but at 110 lbs and zero muscle, I'm really not any stronger than the average girl. I sprained a muscle a few weeks ago carrying these oversized bulk cases of water bottles for someone; I probably wouldn't have even been asked to help if I were a girl, even if I were a girl who spent every day working out in the weight room and had rock-hard muscles.

The door-opening example is a good one, some people think only 'gentlemen' should hold doors open for 'ladies', I think human beings should hold open the door for other human beings (and maybe even to let the family dog or cat back into the house ).

This whole notion of "chivalry" is creepy, sexist, and outdated imo.


PS) By the way, from what you've described, I think your outfit sounds more preppy than gay. :icon_wink

 

Let's hold on for a second. I dispute that chivalry is inherently sexist. I see no conflict between my feminism and my dedication to chivalry. I see them as one in the same. We're all imperfect and fuck up sometimes. I have fucked up more than I would like to lately. But you just realize it, make amends, and break the pattern.

I'm interested to hear what people think is sexist about chivalry, because maybe people have concerns I haven't thought of. It seems like a lot of people are sounding off about the paternalistic behavior they think is required by it... (It's not.)

Because I care about it as a philosophy and a life stance, I want to make sure the chivalry we're bringing forward is the best it can possibly be. Keep the criticism coming...

 

It's not you that is sexist dude, it's the concept that a Man should open a door for a woman, just because she is a woman, or give up his seat on a bus for a Woman, just because she is a Woman, I think this flies in the face of equality, the 2 cannot go hand in hand with each other, who ever is behind you, you should hold open the door for them, this is manners & the only people you should give up your seat to on a bus, is a heavily pregnant Woman, a Disabled Person or a Elderly Person

 

The problem, sir, is that some of us have already accepted the criticisms and made the adjustments. Chivalry has no notion of differential door-holding anymore. It is now a project that has accepted the tenets of modern feminism. Admittedly, I'm probably the only third waver on the other forum I post on (which unfortunate I can't list here).

 

Growing up in Alaska, I was surrounded by women who could hunt down and kill large animals, dress the kill, and pack it out by themselves (back home this was fairly common). Many of them did their own maintenance on cars and snowmobiles (my sister and some female classmates did this). Some (including my mom) had pilots licenses and owned their own planes. Some built their own cabins and ran sled dog teams (actually my mom did that too). Some of them win the Iditarod.

In college I studied martial arts for a time. While the (very small) club I was in was all male, another club in town had a female instructor who could not stand upright due to a blood pressure condition. She stayed in a wheelchair but had use of her legs. She was a third degree black belt and a certified instructor and could move faster than anyone I've ever seen (including my instructor who could move incredibly fast and hit really hard - I got used for demonstrations a lot). People talked about how she was in a parking lot one day and saw a guy getting beaten up. She crabwalked (hands and feet) across the parking lot and put a beat down on the guy attacking him. From around about knee height.

I work in an industry that is mainly filled by women. Anyone who thinks women are delicate prairie blossoms who faint at a little raunchy language has obviously never spent much time around them (I've heard things that would make a construction worker blush when the Navy recruits would run by our building at one job).

I will hold doors for people, offer to help reach something high up if I think I can reach it, and offer to help move something heavy if it looks like someone needs the help. I will do that regardless of their gender or age.

Todd