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Gay men and tribalism

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by gravechild, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. gravechild

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    *This is from the perspective of someone identified as bisexual, so it might be biased*

    One thing I've noticed while researching bisexuality are the dismissive comments from many gay men, stating that bisexuals don't really exist, you're either straight or gay, being able to fall in love with and enjoy sex with a woman doesn't mean a thing - after all, attraction towards men is the only valid attraction, right? After you close that door, there is no turning back, anything else is just a "fluke" or a one time thing.

    Though, that's not what gets me the most. What has never made sense is the downright hostility towards bisexuals and bisexual attraction, like the very idea that someone isn't 100% one thing or another is offensive? Threatening? It's the persistence and the conviction that some of these men show that make me question just where they get off to constantly trying to prove an orientation or identity false. The ones I have the least amount of respect or patience for, though, are those who formerly identified as bisexual. Again, my anger is two-fold: first, a few *knew* they were gay and identified as bisexual first, to soften the blow, and second, instead of being sympathetic towards those who call themselves bisexual and are indeed on their way to coming out as gay, they spew poison, telling them it's a lie, they're cowards, that they're really gay, etc, like that's supposed to help any. WHY?

    Then we have those who are "proud", proud of having never had sexual relations with women, of never having fallen for a woman, and having little to no interest in women. It's like, this is their one redeeming quality, their entitlement to call themselves gay - gayer than others? You hear of "gold star gay", which I think is a ridiculous term in and of itself. It almost makes me want to bring up those who not only find little interest in women, but actually go out of their way to shame women, using disgusting and hateful terms like "fish".

    There was a survey relating to assimilation, with gay men more in favor of not assimilating, of keeping a unique culture, compared to lesbians, and I think this also fits into the discussion. I should say now that I don't like labels, don't like the us vs them mentality, don't like how whom you sleep with should give others the right to box you into a specific category and create an identity for you.

    Anyway, for someone barely coming to terms with their sexuality, I find it all baffling.
     
  2. AAASAS

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    Pride is ridiculous, though it's a way for people to express their feelings.

    A lot of people get ditched by their families, which can be very alienating, this makes the gay community an alternate family. Therefore Pride becomes more important, because to them it is a us vs them mentality, because unfortunately the world has been cruel to them.

    I share the same views as you, and would rather society just include homosexuality, rather than having it be society + homosexuality. Though it may be going towards what I said first, the latter is very true for a lot of gay people that have endured hardships.

    It is hard to feel connected to people when they have been really shitty to you, so once these people come accross an accepting community, they leach onto it, and hold on for dear life.... because it's all they have.

    I used to bash Pride...etc, but recently I have discovered it's purpose and role for people.

    Though it may promote segregation, it makes people happy, and that's all that matter to me, is that people are happy with their lives. EVERYONE deserves happiness.
     
  3. gravechild

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    Pride is fine, it's the divisive and hostile attitude some of the more "militant" gay men show towards outsiders that annoys me. Is it possible for a marginalized group to form a community without showing the same prejudice towards others?

    Again, bisexual bias, but I've noticed a *lot* of gay men saying sexuality for men is this or that, they *are* gay men but ashamed, anyone can get it up under the right circumstances... the idea that maybe bisexuality wasn't just a stepping stone, a phase, and it's possible for "pure" gay men to experience love and sexual pleasure with an opposite sex member seems threatening. I think men in general tend to identify with their "groups" and place loyalty to the group above all else... as a large part of their identity.

    I can't think of becoming like this, ever. Telling others what they are or aren't, excluding those in a similar position, using my orientation as a shield. I was disappointed to find discrimination exists just as strongly on both sides of the fence.
     
  4. Hexagon

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    I've seen things like this before. Its not confined to guys though. Bisexual shaming happens in many circles. Its really sad, IMO, that people who often have experienced defining oppression then go on to treat others in the same way.
     
  5. Pret Allez

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    In my opinion, it's a pretty sad dynamic in marginalized communities where things are based on an us vs. them mentality. In this case, "us" is gay and lesbian folks, and "them" is the oppressive dominant culture created by many straight people. (Though certainly not all, and we have many allies, and I love them.)

    Multisexuals blur the lines between the two categories in a way that overloads the brains of many gay and lesbian folks. They see themselves and their community (rightly) fighting a conflict with straight people who are oppressing them. Because we make the line too fuzzy for them, they attack us by associating multisexuals with the enemy. Thus one of the ways we are most often attacked is by being told we are able to pass as straight, or that we're less politically committed to queer rights as a whole, and that we can always "just run away and be normal."

    The most astonishing thing we're told is that gay and lesbian folks have it worse than we do. It's ironic, because that would be true, if and only if many gay men and lesbians didn't treat us as terribly as they do.

    Ultimately, I don't really care what kind of pathological thoughts some gay men and lesbians are having. It's their problem. And I'm done having it affect my life.

    Sister Adrian
     
    #5 Pret Allez, Jul 3, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2013
  6. sammyjane72x

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    I can't see how on a social level multi-sexuals should be left out/marginalised

    There are no doubt mono-sexuals who would not feel comfortable with dating multi-sexuals. Some just have issues with it to the point they just couldn't date a multi-sexual. It kinda sucks but then again some people just could not date people of religion, trans people and a whole host of other factors.

    but

    Yes you can be grounded in who your happy to date and not date but in a social (only) level of things does it matter. As for me I like good honest intellectual conversation and even though I mostly hang in LGBT circles I'll happily befriend any straight and/or cisgender person who shows this spark about their persona.

    On the other hand I tend not to hang with LGBT folk who just want to party and get drunk and the like, this sort of person really doesn't connect with me no matter who they are
     
  7. starfish

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    I identify as gay and I have seen and heard other gay men say what you are describing. It bothers me too. I'm a live and let live type of person and as long as you are not hurting anyone I day do what ever makes you happy.

    IN the OP you mentioned that many gay men identify as bisexual while coming out. I did at first, as it is what made the most sense at the time. Though as I became more accepting I found that wasn't really the case. So I thing what is happening is that this is caused by internalized homophobia. They identified as bisexual as a coping mechanism because they couldn't deal with being gay. So their internalized homophobia make them assume that anyone else who is bisexual must be gay also.

    It dosen't excuse it and it dosen't make it right, but it does explain it.
     
  8. srslywtf

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    I'm gay but I accept any and all... I also dont think its necessary for people to hold themselves to one label for their entire life. Not saying that sexuality changes from time to time, just that we are constantly learning new things about ourselves and gaining a better understanding of who we really are - and sometimes we're mistaken.

    Sometimes I think the people who have an issue with bisexuality/etc are themselves just unsure of their own position and it's all a big insecurity-fest.
     
  9. gravechild

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    I think what I like about the bisexual community is the open-mindedness, the willingness to accept that there's more to sexuality than "you either like penises or you like vaginas". They acknowledge sexual fluidity in a way that is comforting to western men, who are bombarded by messages that you're either one thing or another, and you don't dare muddy the waters once you "choose a side".

    Especially for someone who has lived their first twenty-something years as a heterosexual, never even suspecting myself of being anything other, the concept of fluidity is appealing. Even before questioning, bisexuality, especially how it related to gender norms was a breath of fresh air - you see so many gay men who "close the door and throw away the key", but why? It makes as much sense as straight men who fear they'll turn gay if they engage in anything involving anal with their wives or girlfriends.

    Attraction? There was a time I was girl-crazy, crushing, thinking, dreaming of them non-stop... and while I'm coming to terms with my sexuality and losing interest, and I supposed to turn my back and say "didn't count; forget it happened"? No, that was attraction, albeit one quickly being changed and replaced by another. I'd love nothing more for there to be more awareness brought to the phenomenon from both straight and gay men, and think it can actually go a long ways in fighting homophobia and sexism, while liberating men from this strictly enforced binary.

    As a label, it might never be fully accepted by the mainstream, but as a valid concept, I think there is potential. You hear stories of gay men and lesbians falling for someone of the opposite sex, sometimes even forming long-lasting relationships. I've learned and seen too much on my journey of self-acceptance than to make any absolutist statements. It's just vexing, to leave one community for another and to see the same biases played out here.

    I've no problem accepting I'm gay, but at the same time, don't like the idea of thinking that somehow makes me immune to non-standard attractions or behaviors, closing my mind from the possibilities. Internalized homophobia? No, just accepting that sexuality is far too complex to reduce to a label or a definition, and not assuming.
     
  10. HuskyPup

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    I identify as gay, but I have had sex with females in the past, and I'm not ashamed of it. If it means I lose my gay gold star, big deal. Personally, I've never understood why gay men might have a problem with bisexuals. I've heard Dan Savage try to explain it, but he just comes across as a self-righteous cry-baby, moaning about how hurt he was by a relationship with a bisexual in his past. Boo-F***in' hoo. For all his advice, it's amazing he can't just move on.

    But I digress. I've never felt much a part of the more organized 'gay community'; the bars, the iconic music, the affected behaviors, and all that. I'm out and active in gay causes, but I'm not about to go off and segregate myself into some kind of gay ghetto, tribe, or whatever else. I'm myself first.

    Why gay men might judge bisexuals is beyond me. Insecurity, probably.
     
    #10 HuskyPup, Jul 4, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2013
  11. Hexagon

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    I actually heard something like this last night. Was at a youth group group, and we were talking about tops and bottoms, and this guy started mouthing off bisexuals, in the form of saying he hated anyone who identified as a bisexual bottom.