Hi. My name is MarthRoyIke and I'm new here. My story... I am 28 years old. My girlfriend is also 28. We have been dating for 5 years and have known each other for 10. We met in college & have careers. We have similar childhoods, are both Christians, and have the same general ideas and life goals about family, children, and married life. I am gay; always have been. I've always preferred men, even in friendship, before puberty. Once I hit 12 and 'the feelings' started, I knew I was different, but was smart enough to know not to tell anyone around me about my feelings; anti-gay therapy and hours of counseling would have probably followed. So for my entire upbringing through college, I tried to suppress who I was and just do what I was told; what was expected. We've had several arguments over my 'condition'; she found out when I broke it to her 2 years into our relationship. With God as our center, we've struggled through this together. Her love and forgiveness with me is unending, and she firmly believes in the transformative power of Jesus Christ. I do not feel this is something that can be changed, or is healthy to change it, and I am finally willing address my fears by embracing this, but I have no (acceptable) theological argument supporting this. The following are the most common and hurtful arguments from her as to why I should fight this: Homosexuality destroys families and relationships. Look no further than our own; it's destroying the future we are trying to build together. You can't say this has nothing to do with me. It affects me. It affects my family and friends, and your family and friends. Look at how many people will be affected from your decisions. It doesn't matter if you're born this way or not, we are all called to pick up our cross and follow Christ. Through him he changes our minds and hearts. I want you to be the best version of you possible, as God intended. To not try is to believe God can't change people, which is to not believe in God. Don't trust your feelings; feelings change. It isn't good to follow something just because it 'feels' right or it 'feels' good. We aren't animals and shouldn't accept animalistic behavior because it 'feels natural'. This is an addiction; you are addicted to homosexuality. It is not you. It is not of God. It is a perversion of love. It will lead you down a path of destruction. Can't you even consider that the relationship you have with your father had something to do with this? I mean, it has to. He's been there your whole life, how can it not play a part? The bible is clear this is a sin. Of course you can't hear God; you are in disobedience and your heart wants this. If it were me, I would be trying EVERYTHING to get rid of it. I have no answer for these statements. Everything I ever think of as a retort is insufficient for her to understand how I feel. She has solved this already ("we already have victory over this, just believe"). Every argument I've heard from pro-gay people have some reason why that thinking is wrong, dangerous, or means I "want this confusion". Through guilt, I slowly stripped away all forms of a support structure; therapy, friends, affirming media, even writing my thoughts on paper. I'm not even supposed to be here. She's called me a liar and a deceiver, then gave me sound arguments that prove that I have lied. I am scared to tell the truth because I feel like my words get twisted into something more sinister than my intent. I have no sound theological argument for my position ("the bible is clear"). In short, I feel like I have to affirm that not only did I "never love her", but I don't believe in God either, and prefer a "Sodom and Gomorrah" lifestyle of orgies and hedonism. One of the most hurtful things she said in our last argument was that "she could get hit by a bus and die for all I care". I try to handle this and to truly listen to her and see things from her point of view and understand her dept of love for me and genuinely try, but it kills me and I feel like I'm still lying. The closest person to me, the one that knows everything, the one I confide in everyday, I can't talk to about my biggest struggle of accepting myself, or scared of what my family would say, or comforts me when I think the world and God hates me, or makes me not feel like I'm choosing unhappiness. Is there anything I can say to change her mind or even see my side? Are there answers to her statements above?
Many people will change their mind about homosexuality if someone close to them comes out. Unfortunately, she still keeps the ignorant viewpoints. You say you are trying to understand that her statements are coming from a position of love. Honestly, it seems they are position of desperation that her life is not going exactly as she had planned it, and someone she knows is no longer in control; and ignorance to the fact that you are entitled to the right to be yourself. However, it seems you want to maintain a relationship with her. So here is what I would say in response to her "argument." -Homosexuality doesn't destroy relationships. If it is suppressed, it can unfortunately lead to ends of romantic relationships - but relationships that weren't met to have started in the first place, just as with people who are incompatible. If it continues to be repressed, then it will destroy a family because someone has forced another to continue in a relationship they shouldn't have been in the first place. However, a relationship can continue simply as friends if two people accept each other for who they are. -Actually, it does have nothing to do with her. The only effect it should have is that of a breakup that was not the fault of either side. It can continue as friendship if both people understand they have to respect the other and not hold a grudge for something that wasn't their fault. -I'm not religious, but I will try to make a case anyway. It DOES matter that you're born this way. It means you didn't choose this, you didn't commit a sin. It's the way God intended you to be, unless God made a mistake. Which doesn't seem like something God does. -Again, this shouldn't make you any worse of a person. People may commit sins, but being created a certain way, without a choice, is not a sin. -It's not animalistic behavior any more than heterosexuality is. Does straight sexual behavior feel good to her? Well, that's not a reason to do it. Unless it's what God wants, which has already been addressed in the above questions. Plus, there are so many things we do because they feel good - eat sleep, etc. - There can be addictions to sex, NOT a sexuality. And a sex addiction would be to whatever gender you were attracted to. If you were really only had an addiction, you'd have an addiction to heterosexual sexual behavior. -How would that have an effect? People are born this way, if she doesn't believe that, she can do her own education. This is just as silly as the people that make jokes about gay people having "mommy issues." There's no evidence for it. -The bible is clear that it's a sin, but honestly the bible says that about a lot of things. If I'm correct, the bible divides laws (or at least they have since been logically divided) into moral laws and something like civil and dietary. Moral doesn't change, and is the 10 commandments. Civil/dietary including homosexuality, but also things like not divorcing, not eating shrimp, not planting crops in rows, not mixing cloth, and stoning people.
I know you love her, or whatever it is that you feel for her, you are calling "love", but we who are outside of this relationship see very clearly what's going on. The guilt-trip she is laying on you is tremendous and masterful. And because you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, i.e. trying to reconcile your faith (or better, her version of your faith), you are stuck. Why is she trying so hard? Why can't she let go? This is what you need to ask her. Understand this: this "depth of love" she allegedly feels for you is not manifesting itself in anything remotely resembling what any of us here understand to be love. If it were, there would be caring, compassion, respect (that's a big one) and she would love you enough to let you go instead of trying to convert you into something you are not. Your own integrity demands that you pluck up the courage to let this go, your own happiness is at stake. Go her way and I guess we'll see you in a few years in the Later in Life section here at EC...
I have to say this is what I thought upon reading it. I didn't want to say this because it sounds like you really care for her, but, thinking back on it, that was probably a poor choice. It sounds like you would be much happier without someone only trying to make you feel wrong.
While I never thought she would change her mind on the subject, she has shown me a level of compassion I never expected considering her stance on the issue. I expected complete rejection and a possible "outting" when I told her 2 years in, but I got to hug her, cry on her shoulder, tell her how hard things have been and how confused I was. To me, that's never been closer to a Jesus-like experience in my life. I know she comes from a position of love. But while I trust she loves me how she says she does, she seems unwilling to accept this, which makes me wonder if what I feel is indeed love. For me, there was no spark; the words feel more routine than anything. I show my love more than anything; I care deeply, I'm intentional, but I still feel like a fraud. I missed that moment when I was supposed to feel like I can't live without her. She's my first serious relationship and I don't want to quit because things got hard, but this issue feels so big I can't set it aside to honor her over me. "Her vision of my faith" is apt; I've said that to myself at times. But I suspect my family has a similar stance (they are fundamentalist), so I treat her words with added weight. I keep in mind that her questions may be my families questions, but with more vitrol and craftiness as they are more invested in my life. She will not give up on "us" for any reason she sees as solvable. She won't say "We're done" just because I want her to. She will fight for me, even if she has to fight me. I know this because we've come close to splitting many times this past year, and she fights me every time. Nothing I say is 'reasonable', there's always why my words, thoughts, and feelings are twisted in some way. It makes me shut down emotionally.
I have a lesbian friend who faced the same problems/questions that you have. She is a Christian and from a small, small, small, country town. She finally just sucked it up and came out. The arguments you mentioned are constantly being thrown in her face but she always says, "God will judge me, you cannot." So just keep that in mine hun.
You've gotten a few replies in this thread. One has given you some possible counter-arguments. While these "counters" may help you to come to terms with yourself and accept yourself, I don't believe they will help sway your girlfriend at all. She is coming from a belief system--grounded in misinterpretation, but a belief system nonetheless. Faith and science are two different realms. Belief vs. evidence-based conclusions. You can do your own research (and maybe you already have). Regardless of the cause of sexuality, it's widely accepted (in the scientific community) as immutable. (Gay reparative therapy for minors has been outlawed in two states.) Regardless of belief, studies have shown that children with same-sex parents/caregivers fare just as well as children in hetero-normative families. Your sexuality certainly affects you. But any effect it has on others is a result of their own beliefs. They own their feelings--they're responsible for them, you aren't! Almost all of us, gay or straight, engage in animalistic behavior (whatever that is). We are animals, we just happen to be human. And what is "animalistic" about sex, when it's an expression of love? No, homosexuality is not an addiction, anymore than heterosexuality is. And finally, about your relationship with your father? I had an uncomfortable relationship with my dad, an emotionally distant, verbally abusive alcoholic. But that didn't make me gay. I was gay the day I was born, and if anything, his emotional distance and verbal abuse was not a cause, but a result, of my homosexuality. Her love and forgiveness with me is unending Reread what greatwhale wrote above. Forgiveness, maybe. But love, sorry, I don't see it. Love requires acceptance, and I see none. I am finally willing address my fears by embracing this, but I ). have no (acceptable) theological argument supporting this. See my comments above. Theology is a belief system, and your girlfriend has a strong one. It does not appear to be subject to change. So any theological argument you can present will likely be rejected because it flies in the face of her particular beliefs. Have you tried going to an accepting church in your area? You'd find that there are lots of Christian belief systems that are not as rigid and unaccepting as your girlfriend's. The bible is clear this is a sin. Of course you can't hear God; you are in disobedience and your heart wants this. If it were me, I would be trying EVERYTHING to get rid of it. I'm not a person of faith, so I can't even begin to unpack that argument. Just know that many here at EC have struggled with this, and have come out of their torment to lead full, happy lives accepting their sexuality and living life with authenticity. I'm not even supposed to be here. Really, why? Who's in control here? She's called me a liar and a deceiver, then gave me sound arguments that prove that I have lied. I am scared to tell the truth because I feel like my words get twisted into something more sinister than my intent. I have no sound theological argument for my position ("the bible is clear"). In short, I feel like I have to affirm that not only did I "never love her", but I don't believe in God either, and prefer a "Sodom and Gomorrah" lifestyle of orgies and hedonism. One of the most hurtful things she said in our last argument was that "she could get hit by a bus and die for all I care". Again, these are her feelings. She owns them. All you can do is tell your truth. I believe you do love her, or this would not be so agonizing for you. But love comes in all forms. You can love anyone or everyone regardless of your sexuality. Believe me I know. I have loved my wife for 28 years, and came out to her only 6 weeks ago. And I still love her. It's just not a love that has anything to do with sex or my sexuality. Courage comes from a compound word in Latin meaning "to tell ones story from your heart." That's what you're trying to do. And, as a footnote, that line about orgies and hedonism is a false stereotype. I have met many gay men who would never participate in an orgy or anonymous sex, men who believe that emotional commitment is a prerequisite to sex. And how would two gay men having sex in a committed relationship be any more "hedonistic" than a newly married couple who, excuse my language, f**k like rabbits? They're certainly not always thinking about procreation, are they? Is there anything I can say to change her mind or even see my side? Are there answers to her statements above? To the first question, doesn't sound like there is anything you can say to her that will make a difference. As to the second, see my earlier comments. ------------ Having said all that, I want to go back to the basic question that keeps bothering me after reading your initial post. You don't mention children, so I assume you have none. You don't mention where you live and whether you'd be able to find an accepting community there. But it seems like you're in a very unhealthy relationship, for both of you. Ask yourself what you want out of your life. Then ask yourself whether you can find that with your girlfriend. You're not married, so even in the eyes of whatever church you go to, breaking up is not a sin. And what is she getting out of the relationship, knowing that she's committed herself to a man who's told her that he's gay? What prevents you from walking out the door and breaking off contact? Find a good therapist--not a "Christian therapist," and try to figure out the answers for yourself. I don't think therapy is considered a sin... I wish you the best. Please stick around EC, and keep posting and reading. There's a lot of wisdom here, and a lot of folks who identify as good Christians while accepting their own sexuality and living an authentic life.
Thank you all for the advice. This is a very safe community, and you all have very deep and thoughtful responses. Looking through stories here, I found someone who reflects how I feel almost perfectly: I found a therapist I liked who was helping me to work through my thoughts, but over time I felt guilty being able to more freely talk to her than my GF. The direction therapy lead me was authenticity through acceptance, and because that isn't what I promised my GF I would work towards, the guilt got crushing and I stopped. Other than reading stories here (I do that endlessly already), what can I do practically to reconcile and move forward? Guilt stops me from affirming myself; how do I reduce the guilt enough to even consider outside perspectives? Is there a way through this where the first step isnt "break up with GF"?
Obviously she has made it her mission to convert you to her way of thinking. I can think of only one option for you that doesn't involve breaking up: learn! By that I mean, read up on various alternative and equally valid interpretations of that famous passage in Leviticus, understand that there are other passages in that same chapter that no one follows anymore. You need to arm yourself with a different and just as coherent interpretation of the Bible as hers. However, after all is said and done, I would have one more recommendation: love yourself. Loving yourself means that you will have boundaries, that there are things you will simply no longer accept. It's not guilt you are feeling (guilt is the feeling you have when you have done something wrong) it is shame: the feeling you have when you think you are fundamentally flawed. Well I have news for you: you are a beautiful, sensitive, intelligent and thoughtful human being. There, I said it. Are you willing to believe that over and above what she is telling you to be? Create your boundaries, be clear as to what you are willing to listen to, then defend those boundaries...if she persists, walk out! By the way, read the posts that came after the one you quoted above...
Ohh I love the arguments on homosexuality and religion my mother is born again Christian and I grew up on religion so I feel for you but there's things religion makes us blind to and that's how were supposed to live our lives did you know a quarter of the bible was destroyed before it was translated and it's been translated numerous times from a language we don't know how to transfer words from? Also if a great being such as god wanted to leave his teachings behind wouldn't he put them on something more substantial than scrolls? He made the universe but had to have 12 people write of his being on scrolls? Also Jesus nor Mary nor any other female also couldn't contribute to te bible? Were they all just toobusy? There's also no scientific proof god existed nor Adam and Eve but there is scientific proof of gay genes and genetics having a role in being homosexual and animals and all species studied displayed bisexual behavior there's more to the world religion brings comfort in death and knowing why we're here and how that's really all we still don't know jack shit about anything so be a good person follow your heart because god knows your heart
