Ok, first of all, I have been brought up in a very strange position, I am a gay catholic republican boyscout. (one of these things doesn't belong with the others!) So, I've come to terms with being a republican and I now consider myself an independent and (openly) have my own views rather than being told what to believe by the parties. second, I've basicly decided to withdraw from boyscouts when i achive Eagle scout. The only thing still bothering me is the catholic church. It just bugs me that the church sees itself as THE power over people. If you dont go along with them, you are, well, not in very good shape. I honestly dont think I'll let myself get confirmed next year, but that would probably raise quite a comotion. lol, loads of fun. Now, part 2 of my issue. At school, we have an "Advisory" period where we normaly do nothing, but if we ever organize records of activities or achivements to be kept for our school records, thats where it'd happen. That's also the place where the counsoler sends passes to be able to meet with kids. So, today, I missed advisory because of a Gay Straight Alliance meeting. the period after advisory i was called down to the counsolers office to talk about my records. so i get down there, and my counsoler comes out to get me. She naturaly asks where i was during advisory, and so i naturaly said the truth. Oops. She just happens to be a confirmation teacher at my church for the graduating class. after filling out this achivement sheet, she noticed that I was attending there and all for CCD. So this is the part that ticks me off, she starts talking to me about religon and stuff like that. Keep in mind that this is in a public school. She even started talking about how there's these 5 things that catholics are expected to vote a certain way on. "against abortion", "against cloning", and then she just said "you get the idea". She must have had the gay straight alliance thing in mind! I cant stand it when others try to manipulate what you believe in. I feel like I should not go to CCD at all next year, just because it looks bogous. what do you think, stay in CCD untill I'm ready to come out, or stop before it starts. I guess the only thing is that it might become a "popular" issue if i drop out of the class. I put up the priests' christmas tree, and i know them and most of the school faculty personally. shoot, i know they will all be talking to me about this.
Wow... that's pretty insane that she actually put it as, "There are ways Catholics are EXPECTED to vote..." That's a complete abuse of her position as a school counsellor and also as a religious official (if you ask me). It's nice to see the separation of church and state is alive and well in the US. *snort* Is CCD training/prep for confirmation? If you're not planning to get confirmed, I would skip CCD. I mean--it seems kinda disingenuous, to go through all the prep stuff and then not do it when you've known all along you weren't going to. If you're unsure, that's one thing, but if you're planning against it... As for questions/pressure, I don't know if there's anyway to avoid that. It's a shame to think people would lean on you about this kind of thing but that's pretty par for the course. You've really got to wonder about the nature of religions which feel they have to employ bully tactics to keep their members. Groupthink can be just awful sometimes. "If you are not with us, you are not of the chosen... you are against us." *sigh* I'm just glad I wasn't raised religiously. It does not sound fun.
This is an issue that you're going to encounter heaps throughout your life, especially since you have such a strong connection with the church. I think it's important to prepare for encounters with people connected to the church, who will tell you that 'your ways are wrong' etc. This could simply be by coming up with a reply for any catholics who oppose your sexuality. I would suggest, however, that the reply is not at all aggressive or threating, as if you told them to 'f-off', it will only reinforce the idea in their minds of 'gays being evil'. Now I'm not pretending to be an expert on Catholic religion, as I'm from a christian home, but I think similar principles apply. I understand your frustration at both the church and at your Advisory Counsoler. Religions are generally close-minded on many issues, believing only their own views to be accurate. Keep in mind though, that we should respect what they believe, regardless of whether or not we agree with it. But it's the way religions go about conveying their points which is somewhat....disagreeable. Forcing their opionions on others, and generally 'bible bashing' (I'm not sure how common that expression is) the population is common for lots of practising religions. To me, this is indirectly saying 'we're not happy with how your living your life, you have to live like we do to go to heaven' or similiar. Ok, back on topic, I think you've got to decided whether or not CCD is best for you. If you truely arent going to get confirmed, like joey said, it seems like a waste of your time and energy (considering that there may be pressure since your gay). But if your not sure, continue with it as you can always decide not to get confirmed. Dave A final note: If a catholic is pro-cloning, are they any less of a catholic? .. And if a catholic is pro-homosexuality, should that make them any less of a catholic?
The other two guys said most of what I thought about.. Though, I would add that because of your advisor's position at the school, it would most likely be inappropriate for her to say anything about you being gay to the church if she learned of it while performing her duties for the school. (Of course, you only said you were at the gay-straight alliance.. Which doesn't tell her much of anything, really..) So, if you are worried about it getting around church and causing you trouble, next time you see her, you might want to mention the fact that she should not mention it outside of meetings with you (in a nice, pleasant way).
Yeah, and about this counsoler, I totally agree with what Joey said. She is totally abusing her position. The best public school counsolers (and teachers for that matter) are the ones who will give both sides of the opinion and let you decide what you think. And the worst thing they could possibly do is get religion involved with it.
Ok... there was a blog entry I saw: I think you should read it...(italics below) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Please Read If You Have Questions About Coming Out/Parents Problems. This might be of some help to you. Ok, so the situation with my folks has escalated. I should mention that they are both highly involved in the church. I was raised in the church. One Grandfather was a Pastor. My dad's a Deacon. My mom an Evangelist. You get the picture. Well I try not to let it worry me and all. I know who I am and have accepted me for who I am. I know there is nothing 'wrong' about me or who I'm with, and what we're doing, etc.. But now my dad is quoting scriptures so I have to dig up scriptures of my own. I used to have a coming out book that had the perfect responses to all of this. I wish I could remember the name of it. Anyway here's some of what I sent to them in response which might have some helpful info for some of you guys. Homosexuality is more about love than it is about sex. It's a normal part of human behavior, biological in origin, and can't be changed. It's a myth to say that if you're gay you're going to get Aids. Heterosexual people get Aids as well, and researchers say that it was a hetero-woman that began the disease. I pray over this all the time, and I don't live my life the way many other's do. Prejudice against anyone is contrary to God's example of inclusiveness, acceptance, and love for all. Dad, you quoted Leviticus to me: 'You shall not lie with man as one lies with a women; this is an abomination. Leviticus 18:22' Leviticus was written primarily as a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Christians today are not bound by the rules and rituals described in Leviticus. (Galatians 3:22-25) But for those who insist on using this passage to condemn homosexuality, then they should also bind themselves to the other rules and rituals described in Leviticus which include: - Sexual intercourse during a women's menstrual cycle, - Tattoos, - Wearing certain types of jewelry, - Eating certain kinds of meat, - Wearing clothing made from blended textiles (cotton-polyester blends), - Cross-breeding livestock, - Sowing a field with mixed seed, - Eating or touching the dead flesh of pigs, rabbits, & some forms of seafood, - and Men cutting their hair or shaving their beards. It's contradictory to believe in one of those guidelines and not follow the others. Abomination was translated from the Hebrew word toevah and means something found detestable by God because it is unclean, disloyal, or unjust. Abomination is generally associated with idolatry and the Canaanite religious practice of cult prostitution. (Ezekiel) Given toevah's strong association with cult prostitution it's unlikely that this passage applies to loving responsible homosexual relationships. The prophet Ezekiel discusses at some length the sins of Sodom, and makes it clear that the sin of sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was inhospitality towards travelers from the desert (Ezek. 16:48-50). This was the interpretation of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah held by Jesus is clear (Matthew 10:14-15, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:11-12); in using Sodom as an example in these scriptures, Jesus is making reference to the interpretation of the event by Ezekiel. Some versions of the bible even have Jesus quote Ezekiel in this context. Gay people are portrayed positively in several places in the bible. In the Old Testament, the book of Ruth is a good story of love between two women. Many passages from this scripture are actually used over the years in heterosexual marriage ceremonies. Again, if God were to write a book today, the context would be a lot different than the Old Testament as times and understanding has changed over the years. {I hope that helps out some of you guys and gals here, as well as my parents. Time will tell. I will always take the following wisdom with me in life: We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi The world won't change if it doesn't start with each of us. Spread the knowledge and the love.. -Thunder} -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also... LM (my female friend, the one I first came out to) has a boyfriend, and he is pretty religious... Well... he's completely fine with me... we are actually friends now... and he knows I'm gay, and I know he has other gay friends (still wroking on him introducing me to them.. XD)... But not all the people are the same. I actually go to the Catholic University, and most of the people I told in there are completely fine with it.
Oh, and btw, have you read the bible? there is nothing against homosexuality there... not unless you twist it's words quiet a bit...
right, there isn't really anything in the bible. The church has just kinda developed that belief through some monks who wrote doctorines on their free time. hmm. I know there's a story somewhere.... yea, found it. from the straight dope website (basicly a myth busters kind of thing) The story of Onan the article addresses the sin of onan, which is the major story that the catholic church twists against homosexuality. This article continues to explain how the article was twisted against masturbation and homosexuality. like you guys said, I dont think i'd be right for me to go through all of the classes if I know I won't get confirmed. I just dont think I'll bring this up yet. There's still 4 months before it starts again.
hmm, once again i replied without reading everything you guys said. Here i was nieve enough to not take a look at the blog entry. I never had heard about that, well i never really looked into this too much either. I like his explanation of the Leviticus Rules (or whatever its formal name is). This is probably the first time I've gotten out my bible in a few years.
Goratrix, have you read the bible? There are a number of verses that straight-forwardly point out that being homosexual is wrong. Old Testiment: Leviticus 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." NIV translation Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." New Testiment: Corinthians I 6:9: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders" Romans 1:26-27 "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." As you can see the bible speaks clearing on the matter, in both the old and new testiment. It's pretty hard to say those verses don't speak about homosexuality in a negative way. If you presented the argument that 'the bible doesn't say anything against being gay' these are the types of verses you will be presented with. It's simply a matter of accepting or declining them as your way of living. EDIT: I read the blog, and while some of it applies (keeping in mind he is writing from a christian's perspective, not a catholic's) he fails to argue against the new testiment. Oh, and btw, I'm not trying to say homosexuality is wrong (can someone say hypocrite? lol), I'm merely trying to point out what the bible has to say.
About the old testament... it's a matter of interpretation of the translation you are reading. I think it would take a deep analysis of the original Latin version to really understand it. I didn't read the new testament (actually didn't even read the entire old.. XD), that's true. I guess I'll just have to read it...
The Bible says a lot of inane and archaic things... just because some guy (actually, as far as Biblical scholars can tell, there were at least 4 distinct authors of the Old Testament, and well, you know who wrote the New haha) wrote it in a book doesn't make it true. Plus, what about religions that say nothing or tolerate homosexuality? Are they just "wrong"? What makes the Judeo-Christian Bible the be all, end all authority on ethics?
Uhm... first off, a Catholic is a type of Christian. There is no specifically "Christian" perspective vs. a "Catholic" one because Catholicism is a subclass of Christiananity. There could be a Baptist perspective vs. a Catholic one or a Protestant perspective vs. a Catholic one but the way you're contrasting "Christian" with "Catholic" is incorrect. Second, a lot of people (not me because I'm not a Biblical scholar) dispute the translation and interpretation of the various books of the Bible. You've got to remember they were written approx. 2000 years ago in ancient languages in very different social settings. For instance, many feel the story of Sodom and Gomorrah has more to do with the sin of inhospitality than it does with homosexuality. The word "homosexuality" itself was only coined in the late 1800s so any "translation" that uses it has been subject to modern notions.
yea, many words don't translate, and the context can be debated, but Romans (in my bible, i know some are different) states it as "man also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other menw and recieved in themselves due penalty for their perversion" (Romans 1:27) anyways, I think this is a problem of whether I can believe what Catholics are supposed to. One major thing about the Catholic religion is that all catholics should look to the church for guidance on spiritual matters, rather than searching elsewhere. I love this idea, it's just asking for corruption. So, if i cant accept the churches values, I believe i shouldn't consider myself a catholic, I dont know what I'd call myself, I guess I fit the description of a protestant. Now I just find a protestant group that I can believe in.
Why do you need to find a group? I mean... can't you just be happy with your beliefs without the need of someone telling you HOW to believe? I do believe in god, although I don't believe in religion... so how does that work out?
you know, I actually thought about changing my post afterwards. You're right, you dont nessecarily need a group, I guess I feel better knowing that I'm not the only one with my set of beliefs.
