I need answers...

Nothing in the bible thats been translated 100 times could possibly be relevant in todays age.


Find a copy of prayers for bobby, and watch it with your mum, thats all she should need to see!

 

>>but I'm came here looking for facts, when all I got was more questions and opinions.

Unfortunatly that's part of the process.

>>I don't believe that for a second, I believe that God would make his bible the perfect manual for how to live your life.

It isn't perfect. God didn't translate the bible, people did. Again, it's been translated many times. You can take the previous couple langauges it was translated from, retranslate them, and come up with different meanings than are in the current English editions. eg: When refering to Mary as a "Virgin" the original word could also be translated as "young lady"

I don't know specific verse numbers, however: Jesus as potrayed in the bible seems to be very big on love thy neighbour stuff. From not making people with leprosy outcasts, ditto poor and blind. Also seemed big on forgiveness.

The old testement is also full of stuff with "little relevancy" to modern christianity. Clarifying, there's a lot of regulations in the old testement which jews currently follow, that christianity doesn't. I think some of the "anti-gay" passages in the bible come from the old testement, so how come we would hold up some of these passages as being relevant but not others?

 

You believe humans are sinful by nature, yes?
That no human could ever be without sin?
That no matter how hard we try, people will fuck up?

Well sorry to break it to you, but the kings james version of the bible is not exactly God's words directly from him to us. Its his words, wirrten down by VARIOUS sinful men into a book, then translated by VARIOUS sinful men into greek, then translated by VARIOUS sinful men into english, then transcribed by VARIOUS sinful men into many different versions, then finally transcribed by VARIOUS sinful men into the king james version.

Im not saying the entire bible is wrong/bad/false/ect. but you have to take into account that your not reading directly the words God said. Humans tainted the bible, maybe not alot but it was tainted for sure. Its been 100% proved that things have been altered, that is a fact you cannot argue. If you want to do the research on that, be my guest.

If your going to take the few verses in the bible condemning homosexuality and believe them letter for letter, word for word, without doing your homework on them, then be prepared to follow EVERY word to the letter. If you dont, then why pick the one verse condemning something natural and good and follow that? You should have your hand cut off for lieing to your mother if you want to be a good boy and listen to the bible.

The bible has to be studied, reserched, learned, and above all questioned. Nothing in life should be free to being subjected to questioning. If you dont question and you just blindly accept, your heading down a dark and dangerous road. You will find your faith starts to grow and solidify if you do these things. Its good that coming to EC gave you more questions, because then your going to get more answers. If you never question, you never get answers. If you never get answers, you never grow. If you never grow, then your faith is worthless anyways.

 

perhaps god was like a tardis it just gets in your head and translates its meaning into understanding no language jesus was said to of helped all people thats right even us gays its nothign wrong its jsut different and thats good. and the bible itself is just a book written by man and as such is mistakeable and translations go wrong and meanings lost all you need to know about the meaning of religion

1) love others as you wish to be loved
2) do no harm
3) show forgivness and mercy as you would wish it
4) be a good person

just love dont hurt dont be an ass

and if someone loves you they will accept you and support you to do otherwise will go against the bible let he without sin cast first stone..nobody is without sin thats the point so unless there squeeky clean keep their traps shut

take care x

 

Ok, here you have it. The "BIG THREE" verses in the bible, new king james, on homosexuality. Letter for letter, word for word.

Leviticus 18:22

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

(Ok, first of all, the old testament cultural laws were over-ruled when jesus died on the cross, because we no longer need to do the rituals to stay "clean" before god because jesus permanently made us clean with his death on the cross. Secondly, abomination is also used in the same chapter about people who eat seafood and wear two different types of cloth at once. Not exactly "murder, rape or stealing" crimes here is it?)

1 Corinthians 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind

(For this one, the words got translated from the Hebrew for our version of "Queer" because they had no word for homosexuals at the time. Hebrew "Queer" was sometimes used to mean homosexuality, a street term. Scholars think someone got this translation wrong from Hebrew > Greek > English)

Romans 1:26-27

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet.

(This one i blame on Paul. We know that Homosexuality is -not- some diesese of the mind like Paul suggests here. Its a natural occurring thing in many species of animals. Paul never said "oh by the way God had an oopsie and made male gorillas fall in love as well". I dont care what this verse says, i know that i was born this way and that it cannot be changed.)



...If anyone else has things to ass, feel free to quote these verses and continue on. This is just my views on the verses, and i know there is alot more to it

 

yea but just getting outdated miss qouted possibly biased forged changed curropted over time bits of writing taken out of context Really badly as you have to look at what they refer too at the time not today and base an opinion on it is so stupid it hurts to contemplate it. what you Need are people to share thoughts oppinions from the now.


let me put it this most basic way.. are you going to deny your life and happyness living by what a book says? ive read cat in the hat ive never seen one like that unless you count top cat but he aint real...he died long ago

 

There're various quotes from the Bible and (sorry) opinions on them here, which condone homosexuality. I hope they help / are what you're seeking. You may have to scroll down, there's a lot.

http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence.html

Check out the links saying 'Jesus said some people are born gay', 'The early Church welcomed a gay man', etc.

 

>>>I don't believe that for a second, I believe that God would make his bible the perfect manual for how to live your life.

Therein lies the problem. You might do well to read a bit of Biblical history. Why are the books of the Bible in the Bible, and in that order? What books DIDN'T make the cut, and why not? Why four gospels to tell essentially the same story? How do they differ? Why is the Jesus portrayed in Matthew so different from the Jesus portrayed in John? Why does the King James Version exist? Why are Kings and Chronicles divided into two parts? What is the purpose of the "letters" that make up most of the second half of the New Testament? Why is the book of Esther included, even though it doesn't even mention God once?

The more you learn about the Bible, the more you learn that although it may be divinely inspired, it most certainly is a human document. There are mistakes and contradictions in it. This doesn't make it worthless - not by a long stretch. It's an excellent historical record, there are great literary passages, and there actually are some very good religious and moral lessons to be gleaned from it. But I do not believe it's an infallible document.

Lex

 

Sorry for wording my reply the way i did (which probably didn't help with other peoples replies)

It doesn't matter what the verses are, it seems your trying to 'prove' that homosexuality isn't a sin. Well, your proof that it isn't, why would god make you that way if it was a sin (for the record i don't buy into this extravagant novel, but lets play with jebuses laws here)

Your not the only religious gay person. Thats why i suggested watching prayers for bobby. Whilst it may not be specifically relevant to you, you mother might be able to relate to her reaction with the role in the film.

While humans have anything to do with it, things will be misread, and misjudged. Lets take muslims for example, they don't condone killing people, yet the extremists will have you believe Allah wants his follows to do that. Sure, abit of a jump from a simple sin, but keep in mind gay people were killed, just for being gay, and not that long ago. I'm not telling you religion is wrong, but the way different people interpret it IS wrong.

 

According to the Bible, homosexuality is an abomination.
According to the Bible, wearing clothing made from different types of cloth/material is also an abomination.
According to the Bible, doing anything on a Sunday is an abomination.
According to the Bible, women can be sold into slavery.

Obviously we don't sell or trade people. We do things on Sunday. We wear clothing made from various cloths and materials. Why are those suddenly no longer valid, but the phrase regarding homosexuality is still in play?

Ever read some of the punishments in the Old Testament? We should gather people in the town square and stone them to death. Go outside and do that - see what happens to you.

Another wonderful quote from Leviticus
"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

Well, if anyone here is guilty please confess so that I can beat you with rocks.

The Bible, regardless of what you choose to believe, is severely out-dated and it has been translated so many times that who knows what it originally said? Besides, it was written by people. Plus, people have added and subtracted things in their translations. The times have changed. I'm sorry to be the one to inform you, but this is 2009.

Jesus tells us in the Bible to respect and love everyone. I don't remember him saying everyone except homosexuals. Someone gave this link above, and I think you should read it if you haven't yet: http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence.html

I also would recommend, as Saguy84 does, you and your mother watch Prayers for Bobby. There is a lot of useful material in there. Greggers post was also very informative.

You are who you are - gay, straight, black, white, upside down...
Nobody has a right to tell you that you're wrong, that you're an abomination, or anything else. Nobody. Be who you are, embrace it, and be happy. Love and respect everyone. Humans are united by our differences and our individuality.

By the way, I am an atheist. I think nothing about religion or god makes sense. I have, however, objectively read the Bible and other religious scripture to become educated on it. So, I'm not defending or bashing your beliefs, I'm simply trying to give you information.

People these days are just using the Bible to defend their prejudiced and discriminatory beliefs. What they should be doing is learning how to be mature, respectful, understanding, and accepting...

A few more things: Don't post on a forum and demand that we keep our opinions to ourselves. The purpose here is not only to share information but our personal beliefs and opinions.

Parents should love their children unconditionally. Even if they are gay. Why? Because there is nothing wrong with it. Homosexuality is a natural thing. The problem that we have is that, as humans, we are cursed with an innate propensity to reject and condemn that which we do not understand.

 

First I want to congratulate you. Your are willing to look into this on your own. If everyone was willing to look for the truth we would be much better off. But, and think this through...if you are really trying to find the truth you should be willing to set out without boundaries. If God is true, then all truth is his no matter where we find or how we find it. As such, I wouldn't come in thinking the Bible is this or that..but rather just coming in with an open mind and open heart.


The fundamentalist persepctive is a relatively recent one, and amongst Bible scholars widely rejected.(as a method of interpreting the Bible) For example many of the early church fathers believed in an old earth not a new one. Verses simply can't be taken out of their cultural and historical contexts and expect to have application to modern day. For that reason, I will give you positive verses to consider, as well as verses that may or may not challenge your beliefs.

Finally, I also believe its presumptious to say that we have a perfect Bible in its current form. Since, we have discovered the dead sea scrolls and other texts we have learned that their were different versions of the texts floating the around(the concept of the Bible had not necessarily yet been formed). Furthermore, many Jews and Christians(later on) considered other texts sacred besides the ones currently in use. Or in some cases, they may of not considered some of our books sacred. Even during the Reformation Martin luther looked distasefully one the book of James. All in all, he held the Gospels on a higher pedistool. .So the notion that we have the perfect Bible, is IMHO presumptuous. But to each their own. Anyway, here is my analysis free verses.

Galatians 6:26-28
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1st Samuel 18-20(too long to post) but of particular interest
verses

2nd Samuel 1:26
"I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women."

Daniel 1:9
""Now God had brought Daniel into favor and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs"

Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..."

8 types of Biblical mariage(thansk to Religioustolerance)

nuclear: genesis 2:24

polygamous first one in genesis 4:19 (don't forget solomon and his 700 wives plus concubines though)

Levirate: Genesis 38:6-10

Genesis 16: Man + female slave

Soldier + female prisoner Numbers 31:1-18

Male rapist and the women raped Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Female assigned to male slave Exodus 21:4

Other interesting verses to remember
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." 1 Corinthians 14:34

"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." Deuteronomy 23:2

(slaves) "Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;" Titus 2:9

"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money" Exodus 21:7-11

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. " 2nd Kings 2:23-24

"When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: " Deuteronomy 7:1-2

These are just a handful things to keep in mind.

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. 1 Corinthians 13

Good luck with your journey and God bless. (*hug*)
PS - feel free to message me if you want to talk.

 

I guess what I'd most suggest is that you simply allow yourself to be unsure. Because this isn't something you're going to sort out in your brain today (or tomorrow). You won't be able to "force" yourself to figure it all out. Eventually, somewhere down the road, it'll all make sense to you. But right now, you're going to simply be unsure and/or confused. And that's fine. You don't have to have all the answers. People greater than we have been arguing this point (and others) for centuries, and if there was an obvious answer, they'da let us know what it was.

Lex

 

Precisely what I would've recommended.

Lex

 

Regarding the verse from Paul, context!

Paul wrote this letter while on a trip around Roman provinces, on this trip he witnessed religious rituals of the many, many gods worshipped by various Romans. It was not uncommon for religious worship of certain gods - no prizes for guessing which ones - to involve sex or sexual acts. And, similarly, in almost all cases, a temple would have only priests or only priestesses - thus, religious sexual rituals were usually homosexual, even though the people involved may not have been. This is what Paul sees as objectionable - these people using sex, not as an expression of love for their husbands or wives,whatever gender they themselves are; but as decadent worship of idols.

If you've been brought up to believe the Bible absolutely, then you have been brought up to believe that you are god's beloved son, and that no matter what happens you mean more to him that the world. I don't have a King James to hand; if you object to my preferred translation (CEV) then please do look these up in your own:

Psalm 139, 13-18: You are the one who put me together inside my mother's body,
and I praise you because of the wonderful way you created me.
Everything you do is marvellous!
Of this I have no doubt.

Nothing about me is hidden from you!
I was secretly woven together deep in the earth below,
but with your own eyes you saw my body being formed.
Even before I was born, you had written in your book everything I would do.

Your thoughts are far beyond my understanding, much more than I could ever imagine.
I try to count your thoughts, but they outnumber the grains of sand on the beach.

And when I awake, I will find you nearby.

1 Cor. 13, 13: For now there are faith, hope, and love.
But of these three, the greatest is love.


The Bible is not all condemnation.
And, another thing to remember - being gay, if indeed you are gay, does not just mean sexual desires. A straight person wants to have relationships with those of the opposite sex; to spend time with them, talk with them, have fun together, cuddle up on the sofa to watch a film, look after them when they need it - just as a straight person can choose to have relationships without sex entering the equation, so can a gay person. Think less about sex, and more about love.

And, yes, try not to worry about it too much. Whatever orientation you are, that's what you are. It takes most people quite a while to get to the point where they're sure either way, and you'll probably be no exception. Trust in God, that he will protect you on any road, and love you regardless of anything else. And chillax.

*hands out tea and Red Hot Chillis songs*