Okay, my father was like "Yeah, so your gay." A good day, doubtlessly. But then this morning happened. As you can read on my blog, telling my mother didn't go as I had planned, and began with an argument about Rush Limbaugh. Having now looked it up a little better, he is at least not terribly inflammatory about the subject, but we all know he isn't voting for gay marriage or visitation rights any time soon. My beef with him is more the "feminism was created to give unattractive women access to society" thing and general assholerly than something as personal as I made it out to be. This morning, before he left for my grandparents' place, he said he wanted to talk to me. I will transcribe the conversation as best as I can remember in gist, and hopefully with as little bias as I can muster (all exclmation marks are merely emphatic, I would not consider any of this yelling): -You seem to...lump all conservative people into a group which doesn't like gay people. Which isn't like you, to lump people, that is. I mean, you gripe on it, (he implies that the subject is always on my mind). It isn't healthy, to keep those things in your heart. I mean, there are plenty of times when my ADD has caused me grief, there are plenty of people who don't understand and are mean about it. But I don't think about it all the time, and I try not to worry about it. -Dad, those are completely different things; you can be convicted and executed for being gay in Iran. -Then don't go to Iran! I look at him accusingly, or one-eyebrow-up, I can't be sure -What did I say that deserves that look? I got up, deposited breakfast dishes in the kitchen, and went to the other room to the computer -Get back here! -I'm not having this conversation. -What do you mean? -I mean I'm not having this conversation. -Your 21 years of age now, and your doing things as if they have no consequences. You do not walk away from your parents when you're talking to them like that! The shit is going to start sticking to your fur. There is a place in Miami that if I go there I'll be killed, because I'm white! There are places in the world where I'll be killed because I have a few dollars. I don't go there, and I don't worry about it. -I am not griping on this (as in, griping on the people who do the hating). -Bullshit. I've seen you on the floor (emotional meltdown I had once involving convulsions), don't tell me you don't grind on things, don't tell me you don't keep anger inside. pregnant pause -I don't know what you want me to say. -I want you to engage! If you have it all figured out, then teach me! I'm 58 years old, and I've only put a toe in the pool of all this stuff (the phrase he used was different, and 'stuff' could easily be replaced with 'shit'). You're unique, and that can make you mad. But everyone is unique! Why be unique all the time? (I am REALLY unsure how he phrased that, so don't read into it too much) I honestly don't know what exactly we were supposed to be talking about. It started off with the usual day-buster of 'you're generalizing conservatives,' which often times leads to a multi-hour circular argument about how awesome/i] Reagan was. I see some hint of "I worry for your sanity because anger has destroyed me more times than you could imagine," a valid concern what with our family's history of self-destructive hatred and angst. That is probably what he meant to convey, but it instead it came off as "nothing has changed about you, and you can't do anything about social injustice, so why do you bother knowing about it? Look at me, I ignore all the issues of my issues, and I'm happier! No, REALLY I am!" Deep down it raised the terrible specter of "I don't care what you do, just do it behind closed doors and don't tell me about it" in my heart. That is why I tried to end the conversation, because I am NOT going there with my father, I am NOT throwing a whole day away for an angry feeling that he most likely did not mean to bring up inside of me, and frankly wouldn't listen to past "You are making me feel worthless by saying I am unique just like everyone else." Unlike my father, I have actually taken a class that spoke about conflict resolution and one caveat was "if you are really angry, it is better to walk away then to say something stupid." So what? Everyone else won't get beaten up for the people they like, everyone else has 1/2 the population to work with, I've got a fraction of that. Everyone else can visit their partner after a car accident, no forms necessary, no questions asked after "I'm their spouse." Damn straight I'm angry, but not at Rush Limbaugh or Hannity or the Mormon Church, I'm more frustrated with them, and in some ways pity them. I'm angry at the people I love telling me what is worth being angry about, telling me that anger is something to be avoided, something evil, something somehow immoral, inhuman. I have an entire culture telling me I'm immoral already, I DO NOT need to be told that being peeved at the fact that there are people who think I'm inhuman is in itself unhealthy and immoral. And if he wants anger, how about being unable to tell him ^that stuff because he would freak out and yell and tell me that I will be happier if I just "go with the flow." No, FUCK no. No more of that, none of it. I will be angry at something if it indeed makes me angry, because I am fucking human. I will discuss it with people who understand and don't need a history lesson to explain why the hell it is important to me that my parents don't casually listen to Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck, that they actually attempt to care about the rest of the world, that their son doesn't have to be gay for them to consider learning something about 10% of the population. :tantrum: AHHH, I hate dysfunctionality. This is so stupid. I can't even articulate that to my father because I know it will just 'start something.' Didn't I do the right thing, avoid conflict over an issue I simply am not able to resolve with him? I will not be able to get him to understand that he cut me real deep by essentially saying "the hardships of your life are not worthy of emotional response, and I don't want to hear about them." Because that is what he wants; he is tired of negativity in his life, sick and tired of it. He doesn't want to understand, he doesn't want to know, he wants me to get over it and not talk about it. If he wants me to talk to him about these things, then I am not going to. It will hurt too much to explain every emotion about everything that society throws in our faces, especially when he accuses me of being either paranoid or a conspiracy theorist. Just like he does when I say that the media and toy manufacturers are enforcing gender stereotypes in our children by making dolls that couldn't possibly breath or stand up and crap-tastic testosterone fests like Transformers 2. Argue the point that society tells me on a constant basis that I am not worth their time to a man who continues to insist that there is something inherently "different" about women? Hell no. I have gay friends for those conversations.
I had trouble following what was actually said and what you are thinking in your head, but it sounds like you got really emotional and it's usually best to stay calm. I would tell him you don't mean to lump all conservatives together, but point out how all big conservative personalities in the media that get any attention are always ignorant and spout off ignorant bullshit. Tell him true conservatism isn't setting different standards for different people. The government stepping in to tell churches they can't marry same sex couples if they want is pretty liberal use of power in my opinion. (This is my stance on gay marriage as a whole- there is no room for discrimination at all in government but churches can technically marry whoever they want; if same sex couples wanna be married they should do it in a church that wants to instead of forcing homophobic institutions to grit their teeth and marry gay couples but hate doing so) I don't know if your parents are together, but you could try asking him how frustrating it would be if society as a whole marginalized their relationship as not worthy when most everyone else's is, how bad that makes a person feel, that they have to be on guard in public and even around their own family. This seems to be the point you wanted to convey...
First off, (*hug*). I think you need one of those. Second, (I don't have uch time before class here but I'll try to quickly help). You're right, he has little to no idea what we really go through and that being gay isn't a choice. Most parents (especially at first) think it's a choice and therefore we can switch it on and off if we really wanted to. But we can't, so we still deal with homophobic sh!t, sometimes on a daily basis for some of us. (&&&) But you might want to try finding helpful ways to focus and direct your anger so you can blow off some steam and maybe reach some conclusions and think about things more. I find exercise works wonders (moderate, like 4-5 or more times) in the gym or even biking around town might work. I know it helps me focus tons. So does having enough sleep. Maybe write a journal or start a journal? And try and find support groups in your area with teens/young adults having troubles with their family? Or even stop in at a clinic or talk to a doctor about where you could go to talk to someone about these things? Hope I helped? Feel free to PM me. Hang in there.
>>>I want you to engage! If you have it all figured out, then teach me! I'm 58 years old, and I've only put a toe in the pool of all this stuff... I'll give you one of my favorite quotes. "It has taken me all forty-three of my years to make sense of life, and now you wish me to explain it to you in five minutes?" Sure, a mutant rat said it, but that doesn't make it any less poignant. As for what else you might have said to your father, I can only hypothesize what he might say to anything you might toss his way. But you might have tried something along these lines. "Dad, I'm gay. That much I know, and the whole liking-guys thing I'm cool with. But quite often, there's a lot of baggage that can come along with it. And yeah, sometimes I fret about the baggage a lot. I don't mean to get all obsessive about it, but it's annoying not to have figured out my exact spot in everything yet. And frankly, you advising me 'hey, just don't tell anybody' or 'you don't have to make this gay thing your entire life' isn't helping matters any. I realize you're trying to help, and I appreciate that. And I'm well aware I can stay in the closet, or not tell people I'm gay, or keep it as a very private part of my life. But I'm not sure that's the route I want to go. I'm not saying that's the route YOU should take if you were gay, or anybody else was gay. But I need to find my own way - a place that feels comfortable to ME. THAT'S really what I'm working towards." Lex
Take a deep breath and count to 10 (or maybe 100 in this case). You are clearly frustrated, and I understand that. It seems like there was a lot of talk between the two of you that I would characterize as personal assaults, rather than discussion on the substance of the topic. I know you have a long history with your dad and there are issues there. That seems clear. (By the way, many of us have issues with our parents, even into our 40’s!). What I don’t see from your description of the conversation is much actual talk of the substance of your point of view. It was hard to follow, but it looks like frustration and emotion took over on both sides. Even if your dad strays into emotional responses, try to take a deep breath, count to ten and then respond based on the substance of your point of view. Do your best to talk with a calm tone of voice. It may not be easy, but you are not going to get anywhere if the tone of the discussions remains as it was in this exchange. Perhaps you two simply are going to have different political points of view. If that is the case, talking about it may not change his mind. If the discussions are going to deteriorate into arguments, then don’t have political discussions with him. While you would hope that a parent could do that with their adult child, fathers are people too, with faults and limitations, like everyone else. By saying this, I am not trying to defend him but simply to point out that there are some things you can change and others that you can’t.
I don't really want to address all the issues here, quite frankly because I tend to hold opinions contrary to the rest of the community. But, there is one thing that, the way you explained what you explained, I would like to say, from a purely neutral standpoint. Thinking too much about how other people think about you is not a good thing. You said you get annoyed because other people consider you immoral. But, what purpose does thinking about it and getting annoyed serve? Especially if it does stress you out? I know how you feel in the situation. I've been called an inhuman monster before. It's annoying at the time. But, for your own health and well being, it's not good to dwell on it.
Thanks Rae . The thing is I tried to leave emotional responses out of it, and when I found I couldn't say much without being stupid, I tried to end the conversation. The text with dashes is more or less what was said, and I was calm the whole time, I didn't shout or swear and...I don't know. This is all so confusing, this conversation just came out of bloody nowhere, and I had nothing to say. That is the tough part: having to be on the defensive most of the time lest something like this happen. You can't even say "no, we are not going there" and get a "okay, maybe later." And what's worse is I can't read my parents. I know they are not, on the whole, ignorant enough to believe there is anything I can do, though my mother may wish there was. And when I told my dad two days ago, he was like "So? We still love you. *hug* You're free now." From poetic to inflammatory in one day. I am PRETTY sure he meant to say "don't let hate consume you," which if he had just said that things would have been better. Sometimes I think he has to go into "teach you something" mode when he is really just trying to be caring. XCTI: You're totally right. I need to calm down on that, because no one has ever said that to me, and in general I don't encounter it that much in the media etc. Lexington: Thanks. I think that is what I am feeling, actually. I just wish I didn't have to go here with my folks. Everything becomes an argument, we all start them for no fucking reason and no one wants to calm down and just say "chill." I tried this morning, and it didn't even get me anywhere. I even got the "you're fucking your life up" sigh. Not because of being gay, but because I wasn't admitting that I was angry at things and sometimes gripe on them. But he clearly doesn't get it. If I was actually fuck-your-life-up angry at the mountain of crap I could be angry at, then I'd have offed myself already. More so I am just happy...content, really. Sure, there are assholes out there, but fuck 'em. I mean, the crap you have to go through just to watch a movie with a dude is RIDICULOUS.
Gosh, I don't know what to say given that very weird dynamic you have with your father. Because any defending of your annoyance/hatred at LGBT discrimination or non-acceptance is not likely going to get you anywhere. All I can think is saying something like this to your Dad "You are right...it's not healthy for me to dwell on the negative attitudes I deal with by being gay. But it will be MUCH easier for me to deal with society and everyone else if I can have the support of you and Mom in accepting that yes, I am gay, and yes, I am going to live a life of a gay man and that yes, I deserve the same societal rights that every other law-abiding citizen does." Ok, maybe that last bit will get into argument again. But I think changing the subject from society attitudes which is harder to control, to support from your family combined with rights which are defined in law, gets away from the pure emotion of it all. Ah....I'm just rambling here...sorry
>>>Everything becomes an argument, we all start them for no fucking reason and no one wants to calm down and just say "chill." I tried this morning, and it didn't even get me anywhere. It's easy to start thinking "If I do such-and-such, that will prevent HIM from doing so-and-so." But that's simply not the case. If your father wants to respond to whatever-it-is-you're-saying-and-however-it-is-you're-saying-it with arguments, or threats, or put-downs, or Amazonian bird calls, that's up to him. You can't control his side of the discussion. You can only control your side, and (in a greater scheme) the overall tone of the discussion. So do what you can to keep YOUR side under control. If both of you are raising your voice and losing your temper and making accusatory remarks, you're having an argument. But if HE's raising his voice, and losing his temper, and making accusatory remarks...while you aren't...that's him blowing his cool. Lex
I'm bi, I'm Catholic, I'm politically conservative. It took me time to consider the reality my gay friends and brother live with, but within the last year (FINALLY) I came to appreciate the need to support loving relationships and those in them. My only suggetion is to help put a face on the real issues of discrimination. Will your partner's medical care giver discuss his issues with you if your relationship is not legally "official"? no. Is it really that hard to protect partners the same way that spousii are protected in property rights? Others can help with additional examples. My point is Jesus told us that he did not come to condem anyone. He came, rather, to teach us to love one another. Say no to hate. Support loving relationships. Say no to discrimination.
it just sounds liek your dad wants you to be safe and open up more how you feel... he wants to know and cares... he saying theres jsut some places you dont go in life but dont spend every moment worrying over them...thats good advice... kinda envious of the engaging farther who wants to know...well jsut the family wantign to know doesent matter who it is.. its jsut gone 9am the family is shouting and im a failure... i look like crap apparently...so yea its all good... jsut tell your dad how you feel..even if you dont want to talk about it say why dont jsut kinda sulk and walk off when someone cares and are tying to engage its not nice.
I agree with everything Just Adam just said. I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought that way here.
