So, every time I have an argument with my dad, which is almost every conversation, it is because he never listens to me. He starts something and when I try and get a word in, he shuts me out and tells me to stop answering back. He says I should stop getting angry at him and stop starting an argument. I'm not, I meant to ask a question, I meant to inform him of an extra detail to what he is telling me about, but he doesn't want to hear it. He says, and I quote, "I don't want to hear your irrelevant details." Fancy that, a father doesn't want to hear what his own son has to say. He instantly deems everything I have to say as irrelevant, and when I ask him something or say something, he makes a mental note of it and uses it against me some time later by either saying I'm the one who is ignorant (as I questions) and I'm the one who wants to argue (Because I try to say something, ANYTHING). A F*&king father who doesn't want to hear what his own f&$king son has to say, and doesn't want to begin to understand that I'm smart enough to answer or have some input into a normal conversation. What f#@king hope do I have of being understood in the real world if my own father won't understand, let alone listen to, what I have to say. This leads me to my next f&%king problem. Thanks to, what I can only assume to be, a growing inability to talk logically or string together a cognitive sentence, or articulate my thoughts, I have been stigmatised with a general conception that I can't make any sense at all, nor can I have a 'normal' string of thought, by all my friends and peers. When I have something to say now, at school or whatever, I get shut down or ignored. GREAT! FUCKING GREAT! I'm just sick and tired of it all, and I'm seriously beginning to think that no one really needs my input. No, to all you worried ECers, I'm not going to commit suicide. From my previous threads, although morbid and often depressing, you might discern that suicide is the very bottom of my escape plans. No, rather I'm beginning to wonder if going mute would be better. I know, many people who are mute would find it an insult that one would want to join their ranks but I'm just sick of it. Maybe then I could stop putting my foot in my mouth, and just fucking live a relatively stress free and happy life. I know, going mute isn't a conscious choice, or at least I don't think it is possible, but I really wish I were at the moment. Perhaps then people would value what input I have left to give.
I find myself saying this to you often, but you are still way too hard on yourself. You can't hold yourself responsible for every argument in your life because of a perceived communication problem. Unfortunately there will be a lot of them, and you're going to need to see things a little more objectively if you're going to survive without being freaked out by everything. There's a difference between being socially awkward and being a total disaster, and you're likely not the latter. For one thing you are able to communicate very coherently here on EC (although sometimes colorfully ) and everyone can figure out the point you're trying to get across. They can also probably figure out that you tend to beat yourself up over this, and that you get very easily frustrated by it. So before addressing things with your dad, first try to see your perceived "flaws" objectively. They are not a major problem, and they are probably not causing all the things wrong in your life right now! Now you may have some trouble expressing yourself verbally, but that can be easily fixed. This may sound drastic or downright terrifying, but try and get into a public speaking class or forum of some kind. There are often speaking clubs in schools, or debating clubs, or whatever. Don't go for the gold right off the bat - join a group like this and let them know exactly why you're joining - tell them that you have problems communicating and that you want their help to overcome this. They will help you learn how to communicate effectively, and very importantly, how to recover from a slip-up without turning to mush. You'll be totally surprised at how much something like this can turn your world around. I used to be a shy dork who tripped over all my words and I was petrified of speaking in a crowd of 3 people, never mind in front of an audience. Yet now I regularly speak in front of hundreds of people - and I kind of enjoy it. I'll tell you one thing, I no longer worry about mumbling, stuttering or making no sense when talking to others. And it sure didn't take much. So I know you can do it too, if you really want to. As for your dad, it doesn't take much for a firestorm to break out when two strong heads are at play, and that's pretty much what this sounds like. Both of you start off well-intentioned, but desperately want to get in your point before hearing out the other. Here again, let me suggest that you try something drastic - very drastic. The next time an argument is brewing between you and him, just close your mouth and don't say a thing. Let him go on and on until he has nothing left to say. Bite your lip if you have to. Then once he's run out of steam, ask him politely "Can I tell you my side of this now?" If he goes on again, stay quiet once more until he runs out of steam again. Then try again - very politely. Keep at it until he finally lets you talk. Then speaking very slowly and quietly tell him what you have to say. If he interrupts, stop talking and let him. Let him go on and on without interrupting until he's out of steam again, then say "Can I continue now?" Then go on. Keep up this performance until he's actually heard all of what you have to say. But don't lose your cool at any point, and don't let him fire you up. Even if after all of this he still doesn't respect your position, at least you'll know you gave it a fair chance - and you'll have communicated in a way that will win you more arguments than it will lose you in the long run. It's called diplomacy, and it's a lost art in my opinion. I'll wager that you can go from being a word-klutz to a genius in just a few short attempts. Just master the rules of conversation and suddenly everyone will want to start listening to you!
Hey James. Thanks again for the advice! I'll try and follow up on most of it, but just that last block about staying quite and biting my lip till dad's done talking. . .I've tried that, more than once. Apparently when he is done, regardless of my saying a word or not the conversation ends, or at least, he becomes a brick wall, not willing to listen one way or another. And when I say a brick wall I mean a really thick brick wall, that shouts at you when you try to talk. But the other stuff made sense, especially the part of us being two strong heads. Just with talking to my peers, I don't really have a problem with being incoherent, more that what I say is just really out there and, often times, not something that others are willing, or able, to take on board. Thanks again for your trustworthy advice James. I always appreciate it. Simon
James gives some great advice. Hard as hell to stick to, but if you can pull it off, you might be really surprised. There's also an amazing book you might want to consider getting hold of called "Just Listen" which goes into a lot of detail about why people have these patterns, what happens biochemically in the brain that hijacks reason centers and causes us to get into these pissing contests, and how we cna prevent them. I think you might find it both enlightening and practical in helping with this situation. Edit: Simon, you responded while I was writing. If he's truly a brick wall once he's finished speaking, about the best i can suggest is that you simply ask for permission to speak, and then, before sharing your concerns, reiterate that you appreciate hearing his views, and you want to make sure you understand them. Sometimes, just simply restating what he's said, in a non-judgemental way, and without any anger or resentment (whether or not you agree with it), will have the effect of completely changing his demeanor... for example: "OK, I'm trying to listen and understand what you're saying, and I'd like to restate it so I'm sure I've got it correct. I think that I hear you saying that the things I'm saying to you are irrelevant and you don't consider them important. Is that correct?" And if he says "yes" you go on to the next point. If he says "no", you say "OK, I'm sorry I got it wrong, could you restate it again so I could get it clearly?" and then just keep doing this. This is actually one of the core techniques in Just Listen, and it's pretty amazing how quickly it works in almost all cases, even with the most difficult and unreasonable person. Once you've gotten through everything he's said, usually by that time, he's calmed down and is more open to listening...but that's where it's crucial that you respond, with your comments, with equal calm and non-judgement. "I feel like I want to have a voice, and I feel like the things I'm saying are important to me, and even though you may not share my view, it would mean a lot to me if you could make an effort to try to listen, even if you don't agree or don't think what I have to say is important, because maybe one day there will be something I have to say that's important"... it is simply a process of short-circuiting the lack of listening, and the defensiveness that is coming up on BOTH sides. One other thought: At your age, it is extremely common for there to be major friction between a son and his father and/or mother. It is part of the psychological individuation process, a time for the child to basically separate him or herself from the thoughts and feelings that his/her parents may have. And it is often done in an argumentative way, because that is part of the individuation/separation process that prepares one for adulthood. Parents who understand this can work with it and handle it; parents who don't just get upset and wonder why their kid has suddenly turned into such an asshole. Obviously your dad isn't familiar with this, and there isn't much you can do about it, except to realize that, since he doesn't know (and your trying to tell him won't help), the best you can do is moderate and alter the way you communicate with him. You'll still get the individuation you need, but without the difficulty that many parents and their near-adult children go through. It's not easy, and it's particualrly difficult to hold your tongue and keep in your anger when you're being disrespected like that... but it really is the best way to resolve the situation in both the short and the long term.
Hey Simon, for what it's worth, I really admire people who are "out there" - they are usually a whole lot of fun to talk to and are a nice balance to people like me who tend to have a somewhat logical train of thought. So I'd probably seek out a friendship with someone like you because I'd find you fun and interesting to be around! :icon_bigg As always Chip has offered brilliant advice, and it reminds me of the interactions I had with my dad when I was 16 and 17. We were also two very strong heads and our "discussions" would quickly escalate to fiery arguments. I never did resolve those car wrecks until much later, so I obviously wasn't good at taking the advice I can now give. But looking back I can see that the problem was that neither of us was willing to listen - we were both 100% convinced that we were right, and we were both trying to jump ahead of the other to get our points across. It's amazing how much of this we could have solved by just listening to each other before we said what we had to say. It's so simple, but it works! In your case, you can (and should) unilaterally make the decision that if you ever get into an argument with anyone, your dad included, you'll first listen to everything the other side has to say before you make your point. Waiting them out doesn't make your point any less valid, and it can often diffuse the heat that's starting to build. It will also start to make you look "wise" to the other party. Now there's no guarantee that they will reciprocate, especially if they don't have the knowledge that you now have, but you'll be developing a skill that will be extremely useful throughout your life. And in the end, that will make you the winner of every argument you ever had with them!
