Whether we're gay, straight, lesbian or bi- we're not totally powerless- we do have choices! Now I want to make it perfectly clear that I'm not saying we get to choose who we're attracted to. I'm not saying that our sexuality isn't heavily influenced by brain chemicals and genetic predispositions that are way beyond any current level of understanding. I'm not saying you can go to a therapist or minister and that by his saying the right words- you can suddenly cease to be gay. So what do I mean when I say that we do have choices? It's your choice when and where you have sex. It's your choice whether you have it responsibly. It's your choice whether you choose a partner that you know pretty well and that you have good reason to trust. It's your choice whether you have sex with people of legal age. It's your choice whether you use condoms for protection. I honestly believe that the same moral laws apply to heterosexual and homosexual sex- that's there's no difference in the eyes of God. If we cheat on our spouse or partner, if we expose other people to disease in a careless or haphazard way, if we use people by lying or knowingly taking advantage of them - it's wrong regardless of whether it's gay or straight. John Stuart Mill wrote in a brilliant little book called Utilitarianism, "This creed accepts as the foundation of morals, Utility, or the Greatest Happiness Principle- that actions are right in proportion to how much they promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness." Things that bring temporary pleasure or excitement are fine unless they hurt ourselves or others. But when they're likely to bring more unhappiness than happiness- you know they should be avoided. I want to encourage everyone on this board to make positive, healthy choices with who you get involved with and with what you want from the relationship. If you're interested in someone who has cheated in the past- there's a very good chance they will cheat in the future. It's true that people are capable of change but unless there is a strong catalyst- it's far easier for people to keep doing things the same way they have in the past. Being gay may not be a choice but just like with being straight- the way we conduct our sexual lives, the decisions and choices that we make- that's the key to whether it's simply the way we express our love or simply another nasty way of inflicting pain. Tim
Thanks Tim. I'd just add that if you are engaging in sexual activity that you recognize is wrong, or contrary to your values, and you can't stop despite numerous attemts to do just that, then you may have a problem and should seek help. It's still about choice though. You can choose to seek help and try to address your problems in a healthy way, or you can choose to let it go and continue the destructive cycle that has already started. When dealing with an addiction - taking this first step is usually the hardest one to do, and often requires some kind of intervention from someone close to you. However, if you see in yourself behaviours that you aren't happy with and can't seem to stop - see a counsellor or therapist and tell them about it. You can get better.
I would agree entirely with what you are saying, however there are factors which cloud our judgement, as Jim talked about addiction where the help of an outside person is often needed before the first step can be taken to make a healthy choice, there is also the factor of love. I truely believe that we do not chose who we fall in love with, this is very often beyond our control, at first we may admit that the person is not perfect for us but very soon we are blinded by our intense feelings of love for that person and things that would, under normal circumstances, be unacceptable are tolerated for the joy of being with that person. Our choices from that point onwards are 'tainted' by our overwhealming love for an unsuitable person. Something that provokes intense happiness in me might deeply hurt my neighbour so the same action which is 'right' for me is 'wrong' for my neighbour, aaaggghhh! These thoughts and reflections, although I enjoy them, are a little too hard for me. I can't seem to get any answers, there are too many points to ponder, to many aspects to be taken into consideration. Anyway just to say, choices are not always that easy to see, nor are we always in a psychogical or emotional state to make the right ones.
I understand what you say. Nobody has a choice in who they're attracted to, but we do have a choice on whether to act on our feelings and how to act.
First, let me say that I agree with a good bit of what you say. However, in your determination of what is right and wrong, there are several unanswered questions. First, what is happiness? What is unhappiness? How can one objectively determine what makes someone happy vs sad? Happiness is an emotion, and thus is subject to interpretation based on the observer, so what makes one person happy may not make another person happy. This makes it impossible to have some sort of coherent philosophy, if how you act to people depends solely on how they react to what you do. Second, who are you making happy? Is it you vs the world? Or do you look for a win-win situation. Only, in my experience, win-win situations require that both parties sacrifice something for the other, generally morally speaking. That does not seem ideal. The other scenario doesn't seem feasible; if you either always make yourself happy at the expense of others or always make others happy at the expense of yourself you will most likely end up psychologically unhealthy. What people need to do is objectively look at a given situation and evaluate what to do based on a set of concrete morals. For example, I think it is immoral to lie, in any situation, and so whenever a situation where I might lie comes up, I reference my moral that says "Do not lie" and decide not to. By having your morals based on something concrete and objective like that, it becomes much easier to do what you were talking about before that. Focusing on what makes people happy only leads to moral relativism and ultimately confusion.
Hi BlueRose! Your argument differs from mine along classic liberal-conservative lines. You are looking for objective proofs to make things easier and I'm looking for a deeper understanding of the situation to make things more clear. The liberal view is certainly more into situation ethics and moral relativism than the conservative view. While you see that as a problem, I see it as the best way of getting to a truly moral position. For example, we would all agree that killing is wrong, right? Well, moral relativism aside- would you kill to protect yourself from a terrorist? Would you kill to defend your country? For most people, the answer is yes- there are situations that cast aside absolute positions. I see an absolute position as a good starting point- but when we bind ourselves to a principle and make it more important than people, I think we've gone astray. I would disagree with you that telling a lie is immoral. I would amend that to telling a lie that is intended to hurt others is immoral. Coming out that you are gay isn't something you owe to the world until you are ready. If you are asked by somebody if you are gay- to tell them "no" when you are is by definition a lie. But it's not the least bit immoral. To be immoral there would be a requirement of trying to hurt somebody. Being gay is considered immoral by many people. I would say that if you're being gay or acting gay with the intention of hurting others- it is. But we can't control how others feel- we can't control how others respond- so if your being gay just happens to hurt somebody- that's different than trying to hurt them. One of the big problems with a discussion like this is the vague nature of language. By happiness I don't mean an emotion at all. Happiness results from the possession or attainment of what one considers good. I may derive pleasure from tormenting somebody I don't like but it can't bring me happiness- merely pleasure. Happiness is considerate of others. It is considerate of the rights of others. Happiness respects others. Happiness comes from not being in conflict with what one believes to be right. So yes it is personal but it's not selfish. Thanks for the discussion. I'm a firm believer that both liberal and conservative viewpoints have a place. :icon_bigg
