I've been reading this book called "Gay and Single....for ever?", by Steven Berenzai. One of the points he brings up is that gay guys have developed other forms of finding intimacy and emotional support going outside "traditional" boyfriend relationships and turning to friends for that. He makes a distinction, though, between that type of (non sexual) intimacy, and the kind you can get from a "fuck buddy", pointing up that they satisfy different kind of needs, and in some cases can be complementary and fulfilling enough for some people to avoid the BF relationship all together (and thus finding the answer to his "single forever" question.) Having come out fairly recently, and never been exposed to gay friends while young, I tend to see friendships in a very, I suppose, "heterosexual light." In concrete terms, long hugs, cuddling in front of the TV, holding hands, casual touching and kissing, etc. are not the kind of things friends do. That's an indication of "crossing a line" that moves you into the "more than friends" realm. But some recent events are making me question my definition of what constitutes "friendly behaviour." For those of you who've been out longer, and have a wider group of gay friends, what's your experience? How common is for you to be intimate with friends in that fashion? Is it in your opinion something common, or is this writer just presenting an elaborate justification for promiscuity?
it depends, some of us girly gays will act like gal pals after knowing each other for years, think sisterhood. but I also have plenty of "traditional" friendships with other gay guys, so I guess it all depends, I say fuck it, make your own rules
To me, even kissing in the cheeks with another man when I just used to do a hand shake or a quick half-a-second hug was a shock. It's not anymore. Holding hands and cuddling? Too far.
With my gay friends, I would definitely consider cuddling, holding hands, and casual touching and kissing crossing the line between friends and more than friends. Long hugs are more of a grey area for me. If they follow an intimate and/or emotional discussion or are done out of sympathy, I consider them to be within the bounds of friendship, but long hugs out of the blue would at least be approaching the line in my book. Maybe not crossing the line, but definitely approaching it. The kinds of friends I do do those kinds of things with are my female friends. Maybe it's because society has conditioned us to think that females can go "farther" without overstepping the line between friends and more-than-friends. Maybe it's because of my pomoromanticism (I can feel romantic feelings for anyone, even if I can't be attracted to them). Maybe it's because the fact that I'm not attracted to them makes such actions "meaningless". For whatever reason, I have held hands, cuddled, and shared long, out-of-the-blue hugs with my female friends. Kissing and casual touching, though, I would consider crossing the line into what I'm not comfortable with, because those go from friendly to more-than-friendly in my book.
I personally don't do anything beyond friendly hugs with my friends. (And one of my friends I never touch at all. It's a weird sort of thing we somehow fell into.) That simply isn't something I'm interested in or looking for. And presumably they're not looking for it from me, either, seeing as how nobody seems to have tried going down that route. Mind you, I'm one and we are many. I know at least one gay guy who won't befriend another gay guy unless he's also going to be able to have sex with him on a regular basis. "Seriously, what's the point, otherwise?" Lex
heinrichtann I am very much with you, and indeed Lex and Gamer. Hugs are reserved for close friends (and family) and anything further is for that one special person only. The whole fuck-buddy thing and open relationships are not for me. Maybe my view is more the traditional "straight" view but that's how I feel. I have read a couple of books about gay relationships too and they seem to portray open relationships as normal. On many gay "dating" websites most people seem to be looking just for sex. It does make me feel like I am in the minority sometimes.
Some people are just a bit more tactile than others, and that's fine. I'm happy to hold hands with and hug friends, no matter what their gender or orientation. Fondling and kissing is pushing it, but when I'm not in a relationship, friends with benefits is something I'm very open to having (even if it is a bit of a dangerous area to tread). Each to his own.
The cultural norms about touch, hugs, kissing on the cheek and the like vary widely in different parts of the world. A famous study done by Sidney Jourard, a psychologist, looked at incidence of touch between people sitting in coffee shops throughout the world, including pats on the back, touching hands, hugging, etc. Unsurprisingly, the UK came in dead last with an average of something like 1.5 touches per hour, and I believe Mexico was at the opposite end with 30 or 40 touches per hour. Different parts of the US were almost as dramatic in their differences as well, with New England being least "touchy" and California being most "touchy", if I'm remembering my data correctly. So you have two pieces to contend with: One is the norm for heteronormitive society in the area you live in, and the second is the norm for gay men. My experience is that touch among gay men to some extent follows the norm of heterosexual people in a given area, but tends to be a little more open. Second to that, the bottom line is what is comfortable for you. Unless Berenzai's supposition is supported by research (and I don't think there's any good literature out there saying what he's saying), I'd be inclined to take it with a grain of salt. I do think that gay men are often comfortable with hugging and other touch-based forms of affection/friendship than, say, straight men. But I do think that behaviors such as cuddling and kissing and holding hands among friends are not something that is commonly done among the gay men I've been around in various parts of the US. One last piece: A lot of gay men were lacking in touch and intimacy growing up, or had other issues (a history of sexual abuse appears to be more common among gay men than among straight men) that can affect their boundaries surrounding touch. So it may well be that Berenzai is getting confused between a subpopulation of gay men that don't have the healthiest of touch boundaries and the population of gay men as a whole.
I feel the same way. Hugs are okay, but anything beyond that doesn't seem right for just friends. I think the idea of open relationships being the most associated type of relationship among gay couples is quite sad. Whether you're straight or gay, I think people should not be together just for sex, or dating someone but knowing it's "okay" to go out and have sex with another person. It shows that the relationship isn't stable and therefore shouldn't exist at all. I myself can never picture being caught with a stranger for a one-night stand. I just don't think sex would be as enjoyable unless it's with someone I know and am truly attracted to. But that's just me, and I'm only 15 after all.
It seems like straight women are more prone to touching others than straight men are. As gay men, I think we are socially permitted to show more physical affection than straight men are. Showing affection is for some reason seen as "feminine" and therefore bad for guys. Whatever. There are plenty of different gay men, gay people, really. Some do touch others a lot. Then there's people like me: (&&&)________________me:smilewave_________________:eusa_danc (*hug*) ...who like personal space. Hugs are nice sometimes, though.
my personal thought is that people start to "make due" for what's avaiable when they can't find what they want. so all the cuddling and kissing and hand holding is intimacy and basically all you are saying is, you are a nice friend, i feeel safe with you, i can't find anyone i really like so for now you'll be my fill in until i find that. if both parties are ok with this, i guess that's their busienss but to me, if you are doing all of that, then why not just be with that person
I also agree with the other comments. Hugs are ok, but not cuddling or kissing. That is definitely resereved for the "more than friends" category. I do, howevere, have a case of the gay-male, straight-male intimacy. This will be hard to believe but I have a straight male friend i cuddle with. There hasn't been any kissing although my lips may have accidentally(on purpose) grazed the back of his neck. The cuddling gets quite heated, but it NEVER amounts to anything. This leaves me quite confused. He is very well aware of my sexuality and i've told him countless times that i'm attracted to him. He always says he does not feel the same and he never initiates the cuddling (a few times he played with my hair) but he never pushes me away or seems uncomfortable at all. And believe me i've had my hands pretty much everywhere except... Well... There. Hmm, this sounds like something I might have to post as a new thread
I was actually going to say something along the lines of what Kosie brought up. I've got a friend that is officially straight, but I've noticed the odd time that he gets a little cozy with other guys, especially when drunk. I came out to him about two months ago which he was cool with, and recently he sneaked up behind me and slapped me on my butt. Maybe he's just doing it for shock value. I have never made any sort of advance on him, but I kind of wonder if he's going to on me.
