Am I insensitive to the plight of my lesbian sisters?

Yes, and you should work on that. Everyone's joy, elation, fear, shame and embarrassment counts.

 

I know what you're saying, and the double standard hurts my feelings. I think it's one of the few places we can validly saw that sexism affects men in a unique way. (In before someone claims I said men suffer from sexism more; please re-read.)

However, just that double standard exists (which is more about male gaze and the objectification of women than it is about genuine acceptance of female homo- and bisexuality) doesn't mean that we should view the comings out of women as any less courageous or special than our own stories.

Yes but your experience of what it is to be attracted to women is that of a guy.

 

No it is not insensitive, remember the population on EC is probably a bias one to ask because the people you are asking are mostly people who are struggling or looking for support with their sexuality. You are right, however, that women being gay is more acceptable in society. Its not a fair statement, but it happens to be the case 99% of the time.

Men are held to a standard of never being perceived as weak. Therefore, the concept that a man can have feelings for another man is effeminate. Plus considering that we live in a straight male dominate society where homo-eroticism between two girls is "hot". Women have the ever-constant struggle of trying to perfect everything, and never letting anyone see them sweat, but for the most part it is easier for a woman to be vulnerable, loving, and affectionate to another woman and have it accepted by their peers.

It would be insensitive to say that you think that all girls have it easier, and that they dont have any struggles, but you didnt, you said overall they have an easier time, which happens to be true.

 

This isn't actually true. It's different for women, certainly. But it is not easier. Not in many cases.
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Homosexuality in women is regarded differently. But I'd bet money that gay/bi guys would recognize some of the feelings I have about being around straight women. So many times they're worried that I'd hit on them or that I'm trying to turn them gay. My gender role is just as confused as many gay/bi men because I'm more masculine than women are supposed to be--which isn't as openly frowned upon, but still often leaves me feeling like an outsider and a traitor.

Not to mention the fact that many many many straight men objectify me upon learning that I'm gay. I am a person, not some pornographic fantasy character. I don't always get treated with much respect in that regard. I have people tell me I'm too pretty to be a lesbian, that OF COURSE I could find a nice man to marry. I have guy come up to me and offer themselves as a miracle cure for my gayness. I have been harassed. I have plagued with inappropriate and embarrassing questions about my sex life by people who were practically strangers.

And also, just like in this thread, gay guys have brushed me off, saying how it's nowhere near as difficult to be a lesbian than it is to be gay man. Well, I'd just like to say that the same people who hate gay/bi guys because they think homosexuality is unnatural or wrong often also hate me.

I'm not saying that I'm insensitive to the particular difficulties of being male and gay. It's different, and I'm aware of that. Yes, males are held to some different standards and I can only imagine how hard that must be.

But please, don't sit there and deny or belittle the hardships that gay/bi women face just because your life is hard. We should be standing together to stop this from happening, not fighting over who has it worse. We should be talking to each other and being understanding and having empathy for one another. So let's do that instead.

 

Sounds like some Oppression Olympics are going on. Gay men are the mostest oppressedest!!!1

Gay men don't have it any worse than gay women. They just have it different. There's a big difference there between "worse" and "different" that you should PROBABLY take into account.

 

This guy who came to talk to my class today said the same thing, no one cares at the high school if you're a lesbian, but if you're gay they do.

It's not that it's easier for girls to come out. It's just as hard, some cases may be easier, but some cases may be harder. It's that a lot of society is more accepting of girls being gay than guys. I don't really get why though.

 

Totally agree with these guys ^^^, both groups have different stereotypes and generalising is never a good idea. All groups in the LGBT spectrum have different challenges to face, theres no way to say for definite which is harder, it's fine to have an opinion on this but saying it in a public forum where people are in the mist of dealing with really tough issues regarding this kind of thought process is probably not a good idea. Just try to think if someone made a thread saying coming out as gay isin't as hard as lesbian, you would be a little niffed.

 

I think it has to do with the whole masculinity/femininity thing. You see, gay men are stereotyped as feminine, almost all the time. Gay women on the other hand, while holding the stereotype of masculine or "butch", have also had that broken down to some extent (partly due to the lesbian porn made for straight men, but I digress). Even if you look around the media, you can see feminine lesbians much more than you'd see masculine gays. And even if you do see relatively masculine gays, they're probably being 'persecuted' for being 'average' (as opposed to being the feminine gay) in whatever fictional setting they're in.

So, in a male culture where being masculine is usually something to strive for, letting the world know that you're gay and having everyone assume you're going to be feminine is a bad thing. Whereas if you're coming out as a lesbian, people might bat an eye or two, but seem to be less phased by it afterwards.

Just my two cents, admittedly coming from a gay-male's biased point of view though.

 

lol @ anyone who thinks lesbians have it better. It's really just a cakewalk, being a gay woman! It's totally more acceptable for a woman to be gay than a man!

Uh, not.

Men and women are socialized differently. Different things are expected of them, but vis-a-vis sexuality, there is one expectation that they both share: heterosexuality. If you're not heterosexual, you're marginalized, whether you're a man or a woman. You could argue back and forth ad infinitum about who has it worse, but guess what? It's not a matter of who has it worse. It's the fact that we're all, all of us who are not-heterosexual, are oppressed.

And by the way, it can be easily argued that lesbians have it worse, because most of the time, it's usually the G in LGBT that's represented, uh, anywhere, from the television screen to literature to academia. Lesbians are ignored and silenced and have been throughout history, and continue to be because of the misogyny that exists both in society at large and in queer communities, which privileges maleness and masculinity. Gay men do not benefit from straight privilege, but their being gay doesn't cancel out their male privilege. So--an argument can easily be made for both sides. Once again, it's not a matter of hardest, it's a matter of difference.

 

Wait, what?

I'd argue quite the opposite. Male privilege is largely based off of being societally "the best" and "the most masculine". Since gay men are often stuck with the stereotype of being super flamboyant and feminine... well, let me put it this way, when have you seen a stereotypical gay man get "male privilege"?

Those who aren't obviously stereotypically gay probably still get male privilege. Of course they do, because nobody thinks they're gay.

 

All this is completely down to perspective and there are so many subjective things being posted I mean what is a "stereotypical gay".

No one is going to influence anyone else in this argument, every single human being has struggles, some have more than other and some have different struggles but there is no way to judge them against each other.

 

You can't really argue that that isn't one of, if not the biggest stereotypes gay men face. That's why it's a stereotype; it's a culturally "accepted" (rooted, maybe?) assumption about a group of people. You even see it here on EC (even though we should know better) with all the guys complaining they can't meet guys, because all they see are the "fairies" and the "queens". Guaranteed if you were to go ask strangers on the street of what the "gay male stereotype is", the vast majority would answer that. <_<

I'm also not denying everyone has difficulties. I'm very much in agreement with the few posts above this one that say gay men and women both have it tough, just differently tough. That one specific point though I'm putting up for discussion, because that's what I understood "male privilege" to be. And if I was misinformed, I'd like to learn what's right.

 

I have no Idea what male privilage means, I have never heard it before and it sounds like an extremely subjective phrase to me.

As for the other point all I can see from here is we both know it's a stereotype, we both know other stereotypes exist and we both know you can't measure who has it worse so from what I can gather we both agree :icon_wink

 

yes thats correct, in society its acceptable for males to be as masculine as possible, a fem kind of guy is ridiculed and is seen as wrong.

and yes the reason why a feminine lesbian is seen as acceptable is because its socially acceptable for women to be sexualized or seen as sexual beings (clothes that show off curves, makeup, long hair, young, flawless skin, petite, emotional, big ass/big boobs) pretty much being feminine.

well waitingfordawn is right here actually

there is a scale of masculinity and femininity, obviously being a gay male would mark you and the bottom of the scale but no matter what level of masculinity you are at, it will trumph the highest of women in the femininity scale, all levels of masculinity is deemed higher than femininity in a patriarchal society

i feel sorry for feminists and masculine females, because they are at the lowest of the femininity scale also.

so yes, its not about gay men having it harder or gay women having it harder, because we are socialized differently, so we really do have it differently

 

at the OP
Again, I think EC isnt the best place to ask that question, because the population of people on EC are mostly all struggling in their own way, and you are going to get many bias answers.

Dont be ashamed for your opinions, I am not, and I still stand by them. As a society I think gay men have a harder time then gay women. And again, that is my opinion, so please respect it, without ridicule or judgement.

Appreciated =)

 

No, no, no, no! I'm so tired of gay guys saying that lesbians have it easier. We don't. We really don't. Heterosexual men look at us as little more than eye candy, that we exist to do things with women for their benefit and not ours. We're not really gay, we're just trying to get their attention, even if we don't realize it yet. All we need is a good penis and we'll be fine in the long-run. I have been personally told by a guy in person that sex with him would "fix" me.

Most of lesbian persecution is steeped in sexism and male dominion. Most heterosexual men can't conceive of the idea of a woman that doesn't like dick. To the point that they convince themselves that we're confused, don't have any experience, and that we're too stupid to know any better. Yes, most male attitudes toward women often boil down to them looking down on us because they are told be society that women are stupid without a man to guide them and lesbians are no different.

The lowest, common denominator thinks that lesbian sex is better than gay sex. Why? Because the lowest, common denominator is the mindset of a sexist, white, and heterosexual male. Of course they're not going to like two guys getting it on. This isn't a good thing, though. It's just another tool for objectifying women to just things rather than people.