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Old 4th May 2012, 05:20 PM   #1
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Default Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Hey,

after a night out last month we were sleeping on a friends floor and I woke up with one of my good friends rummaging about in my boxers!

I am gay, but not out to anyone. He is a good friend who is reasonably camp by nature but only in the way he talks. He also had a girlfriend up until a month ago, so everyone assumed he was straight.

Anyway, this was obviously a bit of a shock, so not sure what to do, and after a few minutes consideration I turned on my side thinking he would stop. but he kept at it.

I was still pretty drunk so I was thinking ' do I just turn around and make out with him...' (very glad now i didn't pursue that!) but in the end I just let him continue and pretended to still be asleep. It wasn't like I didn't enjoy it a bit.

Basically the problem is, I don't know whether to talk to him about it. i can't help but think he probably regrets it and is worried i was awake. I don't really want to have anything physical with him but I think we could be great support for each other!

But how the hell do I raise it without embarrassing him?
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Old 4th May 2012, 05:27 PM   #2
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Two Questions:

2. Are you sure this actually happened? (you mentioned your intoxicated state)

3. Are you sure he didn't just do this because he was drunk too?

I'm not sure about bringing this up, unless your really want to, but I would recommend bringing it up in private.
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Old 4th May 2012, 05:31 PM   #3
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Well, first of all I think you should raise it in private with him but definitely raise it. That sounds sexual assaultish and not okay!
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Old 4th May 2012, 06:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Yeah, I agree. That sort of thing is not on, and you'd be better looking for support from someone who isn't an assaulter.
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Old 4th May 2012, 09:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

No "ish." That is sexual assault. He was touching you without your permission, and it was wrong.

In fact, what you describe is often exactly how people respond in sexual assault situations. Someone starts touching them, and they pull away, or sometimes just freeze and don't know how to respond. It's not surprising that they don't know how to respond, because the person is already behaving outside of social norms, and most people don't have any experience with that. You keep thinking that the assaulter is just somehow not getting the message, or that they think it's okay with you, and you try to figure out how to get it across that you don't like it without being rude or hurting their feelings.

But you don't have to worry about his feelings. The whole problem is his disregard for your feelings and your right to consent before he starts doing things to your body.

And the fact that you didn't scream at him to stop does NOT qualify as consent. A consenting partner responds actively, touches you back. A consenting partner participates, and does not just lay there frozen. And anyway, he started while he knew you were unconscious and impaired by alcohol.

If you were a girl, no one would have said "ish," and someone would probably have suggested by now that you should call the police. I'm not going to say that since there is probably no evidence.

Possibly, it would be a good idea to tell him that what he did was inappropriate to the point of being illegal, and if you wanted you could report him to the police. Be clear that what he did was WRONG, and that it isn't because it was gay but because he didn't ask you first. Do NOT worry about making him feel bad; he should feel bad.

If he expresses genuine remorse, then you can talk to him about his sexuality, and come out to him. (If you didn't describe him as a good friend, I would say you shouldn't have anything more to do with him. But I'll let you decide if it was forgivable in the context of your friendship. It's possible that you could influence him to not do things like this, if the two of you are close.)

If you do come out to him, you need to be really clear that you aren't interested in him.

But, you should definitely let him know that fondling unconscious people is unacceptable.
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Old 4th May 2012, 09:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianthe View Post
No "ish." That is sexual assault. He was touching you without your permission, and it was wrong.

In fact, what you describe is often exactly how people respond in sexual assault situations. Someone starts touching them, and they pull away, or sometimes just freeze and don't know how to respond. It's not surprising that they don't know how to respond, because the person is already behaving outside of social norms, and most people don't have any experience with that. You keep thinking that the assaulter is just somehow not getting the message, or that they think it's okay with you, and you try to figure out how to get it across that you don't like it without being rude or hurting their feelings.

But you don't have to worry about his feelings. The whole problem is his disregard for your feelings and your right to consent before he starts doing things to your body.

And the fact that you didn't scream at him to stop does NOT qualify as consent. A consenting partner responds actively, touches you back. A consenting partner participates, and does not just lay there frozen. And anyway, he started while he knew you were unconscious and impaired by alcohol.

If you were a girl, no one would have said "ish," and someone would probably have suggested by now that you should call the police. I'm not going to say that since there is probably no evidence.

Possibly, it would be a good idea to tell him that what he did was inappropriate to the point of being illegal, and if you wanted you could report him to the police. Be clear that what he did was WRONG, and that it isn't because it was gay but because he didn't ask you first. Do NOT worry about making him feel bad; he should feel bad.

If he expresses genuine remorse, then you can talk to him about his sexuality, and come out to him. (If you didn't describe him as a good friend, I would say you shouldn't have anything more to do with him. But I'll let you decide if it was forgivable in the context of your friendship. It's possible that you could influence him to not do things like this, if the two of you are close.)

If you do come out to him, you need to be really clear that you aren't interested in him.

But, you should definitely let him know that fondling unconscious people is unacceptable.
I don't have anything to add, but I'm definitely seconding this one. Even if he is unsure of his sexuality and wanted to experiment with your or something, what he did was WRONG.
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Old 4th May 2012, 09:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianthe View Post
No "ish." That is sexual assault. He was touching you without your permission, and it was wrong.

In fact, what you describe is often exactly how people respond in sexual assault situations. Someone starts touching them, and they pull away, or sometimes just freeze and don't know how to respond. It's not surprising that they don't know how to respond, because the person is already behaving outside of social norms, and most people don't have any experience with that. You keep thinking that the assaulter is just somehow not getting the message, or that they think it's okay with you, and you try to figure out how to get it across that you don't like it without being rude or hurting their feelings.

But you don't have to worry about his feelings. The whole problem is his disregard for your feelings and your right to consent before he starts doing things to your body.

And the fact that you didn't scream at him to stop does NOT qualify as consent. A consenting partner responds actively, touches you back. A consenting partner participates, and does not just lay there frozen. And anyway, he started while he knew you were unconscious and impaired by alcohol.

If you were a girl, no one would have said "ish," and someone would probably have suggested by now that you should call the police. I'm not going to say that since there is probably no evidence.

Possibly, it would be a good idea to tell him that what he did was inappropriate to the point of being illegal, and if you wanted you could report him to the police. Be clear that what he did was WRONG, and that it isn't because it was gay but because he didn't ask you first. Do NOT worry about making him feel bad; he should feel bad.

If he expresses genuine remorse, then you can talk to him about his sexuality, and come out to him. (If you didn't describe him as a good friend, I would say you shouldn't have anything more to do with him. But I'll let you decide if it was forgivable in the context of your friendship. It's possible that you could influence him to not do things like this, if the two of you are close.)

If you do come out to him, you need to be really clear that you aren't interested in him.

But, you should definitely let him know that fondling unconscious people is unacceptable.
I'm echoing these remarks. You don't have to try and justify what he did; what he did was wrong, period. How you proceed is up to you, but I think Ianthe is 100% dead on here. You don't have to defend him; just because you're a guy, and just because you're gay, doesn't mean you don't have the right to say no or expect others to respect your body.

You are deserving of respect and dignity.
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Old 4th May 2012, 10:07 PM   #8
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Honestly all of these 'assault' posts are very overblown. His friend could of even assumed him turning over was just him stirring in his sleep.

OP Didn't seem overly bothered by it, so everyone else, relax. was OP even erect?


OP, You should just talk it out if you want any hope of a normal friendship after this.

I'm not trying to be insensitive but come on guys this wasn't date rape.


Aswell, is anyone thinking of the situation here? There could of been drunken flirting aswell, Perhaps OP's friend thought he got the go ahead.

EDIT: also, drunken bicuriousity isn't uncommon.

Everyone here is just nitpicking the 'Friend touched me without consent' whilst disregarding the 'We were intoxicated and sleeping on a floor' .. I honestly wouldn't hold OP's friend solely responsible as it wasn't a conscious choice of a proper mental state.
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Last edited by Koll; 4th May 2012 at 10:15 PM.. Reason: tidbit addition.
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Old 4th May 2012, 10:13 PM   #9
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

I agree with Koll..

@OP: Just ask him to go somewhere with you, like a certain spot/activity you guys usually do together and try talking to him then. I mean, no matter how you say it, it will embarrass him. If you were bothered by it, just be cool about it. Tell him that it's not okay for him to be doing that.
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Old 4th May 2012, 11:36 PM   #10
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

I couldn't disagree more strongly with Koll. I think there is a serious gender double standard here, and it is a cultural thing when it comes to sexual assault against men. It's actually worse with straight guys and women, IMO - but obviously it impacts gay and bi men as well.

Just imagine for a moment that John was a woman. Let's call her Johanna. So, Johanna and her friend were drinking with some other friends. They both got really drunk, and went to sleep on the floor. Johanna wakes up and finds that her friend has his hand down her panties fingering her. She does everything John does, she doesn't say anything, tries to roll over to get him to stop, he doesn't stop. Johanna isn't sure how to react.

What would we tell her? I don't think anyone would tell her, "Johanna were you wet? Were you turned on?! If you were turned on it doesn't count." Because, as we all know (or should), being physically stimulated can lead to an erection even if you don't want one.

Would we tell her, "You didn't say no Johanna! You didn't act overly bothered by it." Of course not. Why? Because we all know what was done to her was wrong.

Would we tell her, "Did you flirt with him Johanna? Did you lead him on? If you did, then you are responsible." No, we wouldn't. We stopped telling women that a long time ago for good reason.

The only reason I don't urge John to call the police is because the guy was drunk, because he may or may not have known what he was doing, and there really isn't any proof. When confronted his friend will likely vigorously deny it.

But seriously, this is a gender double standard based on a stereotype that guys are supposed to like sex, and therefore being sexually assaulted is somehow less of an issue. It's bullshit, plain and simple.

It's up to John how he wants to deal with his friend. Maybe it didn't bother John, but judging from the fact that he tried to get him to stop by rolling over, I'd definitely say it was unwanted. Just because his friend might be bi-curious doesn't give him the right to get all bi-curious with John's cock - at least not without John's consent, and John has made clear he has no interest in a sexual relationship with the guy.
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Old 4th May 2012, 11:49 PM   #11
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Honestly even after you change the roles, my opinion still stands. That's stereotyping that women are a weaker and more vulnerable role.

Perhaps you should wait for further explanation of OP's story before you assume his friend has negative intentions.
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Old 4th May 2012, 11:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

It sounds to me like you were sexually assaulted and now you are in denial.




Only you can know the truth though.
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Old 4th May 2012, 11:55 PM   #13
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Hmmm, it makes me sad to see everyone fighting.

To everyone: remember many of the people on Emptyclosets are in just as much need of support and advice as the topics they post on. We should not be so quick as to lash out at one another, that does nothing but poison the "safe" nature of our community. So please, if you could keep your feelings a bit more under control; I believe that most of you are probably capable of keeping your opinions civil, and respectful, whilst direct.

That said, I do feel like you have been assaulted John, but that is ultimately for you to decide. None of us unfortunately are able to fix anything, or do anything for you. We can give you the tools, support, and advice on how you are able to fix things yourself but that is up to your interpretation. All I can say is that if I were in your shoes, I would choose to talk to this person, to tell them I felt violated.

That is all I need so say, again, I am really sad to see you all fighting :/
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Last edited by TyRawr; 4th May 2012 at 11:57 PM..
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Old 5th May 2012, 12:19 AM   #14
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

I have to jump back in here, and re-iterate a point I made in my previous post.

I don't really think John confronting his friend will make a huge difference. His friend likely believed that he was asleep, and therefore wouldn't remember or know what was being done to him. If he is confronted by John with the fact that he knew what was happening, he's going to deny what happened.

Let's face it. If the guy is bi-curious or even gay, the likelihood of him coming out of the closet or admitting it are pretty much zero in this situation.

And none of this takes into account that by acknowledging that it happened that he's admitting to a criminal offense.

Chances are, if John confronts him, the friendship is pretty much going to be over. If for no other reason his friend will be uncomfortable with the fact that John knows what he did. It is impossible for this not to strain the friendship.

So, John has to decide what he wants to do. Either he wants to confront him, and say whatever he feels like he needs to say. Or he has to just pretend that it never happened.

I'm not really in the pretend it never happened camp. I'm more in the "text him to see if he admits it, then depending on what he has to say consider going to the police with evidence" camp.

But this is John's decision. He has to decide what is right for him, and what is most important to him.
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Old 5th May 2012, 01:12 AM   #15
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Guys let's not fight over things like gender double standards. That's completely irrelevant to his situation. And please don't be hostile to each other, johnt needs our support right now, not self-righteous arguing. I get that we have different opinions on what happened, but there's not need to discuss that in a hostile manner.
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Old 5th May 2012, 01:34 AM   #16
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

I don't understand what the big deal is. OP doesn't feel violated, they are good friends and he is only worried about what a possible confrontation will do to that friendship. He doesn't seem to be in denial in terms of a hidden PTSP coming about. And anyway, I don't know how old they are, but if they are teenagers I'd be more worried about being drunk than sexually curious.

No, it's not ok for that guy to feel his way around someone's crotch, but to start mentioning police in such a situation, I mean just calm down.

@johnt
You said it was last month, so by now you've probably gone past the point where you can jokingly ask him what he was doing. You can try with something like "how wasted were you to try something like that?".
However, if you feel violated in any way, don't hold it inside. Talk to him or whoever you trust.
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Old 5th May 2012, 01:34 AM   #17
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

I didn't realize that I came off in such a hostile manner. My intention wasn't to start an argument or even a debate. These things are irrelevant.

My intention was to make clear - crystal clear - that John has no reason to blame himself. If he got an erection, it doesn't mean he consented. The fact that he didn't vocally say no, doesn't mean he consented. The fact that he may have been drunkenly flirting, doesn't mean he consented.

The point being those excuses for his friend are the basic equivalent of saying: "Well, she dressed like a slut so she was asking for it."

If I seemed passionate about it, it's because I am. I've seen sexual assault against guys dismissed in the past simply because he was a guy, and the abuser was a woman. But that is neither here nor there.

I simply want it to be very clear that John has no reason to blame himself or second guess anything he did or didn't do.

If I came off as a bit too hostile, I apologize. I just had a wisdom tooth extracted, I am in a lot of pain, and I'm popping some extremely strong pain pills. So, if I came across as a little bit bitchy that's probably why.
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Old 5th May 2012, 02:01 AM   #18
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

I just saw in another thread that johnt says he's 20, so that basically rules out the innocent childish curiosity. At the age of 20, his friend should be much more aware of what he should or shouldn't do, even drunk. My previous post was more directed to the possibility that johnt was much younger, in which case I didn't think sexual assault talk was either applicable or helpful to OP.

---------- Post added 5th May 2012 at 11:02 AM ----------

Oh, Aldrick, sorry to hear about your wisdom tooth.. hold in there.
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Old 5th May 2012, 02:04 AM   #19
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Honestly I felt really attacked. I was just trying to give a highlight to perhaps another side of the story and got completely bashed and told how wrong I was..
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Old 5th May 2012, 10:43 AM   #20
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Default Re: Friend touched me whilst I was 'sleeping'

Koll, the issue is resolved, I think that everyone is sorry for making you feel so singled out. Its good to have different opinions, thank you.
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