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Religious Parents? (Hope this isn't a repeat of another post)

Discussion in 'Coming Out Advice' started by takeitsaxman201, May 27, 2012.

  1. takeitsaxman201

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    Hey...

    So I'm new to the idea of coming out...I mean, I know what it is, but it never crossed my mind to actually consider coming out. My parents are DEVOUTLY Christian...my dad is an Assemblies of God pastor. They found out about my sexuality when I was in high school, and all my dad could say was, "so my son is a faggot??" He left the house and the subject wasn't brought up again until the summer after my freshman year of college (at a Southern Baptist institution, no less) when I was just about ready to pack my bags and leave. My mom came in and asked what I was doing and I just broke down. My dad was a little more gracious, but he insisted that I do conversion therapy. The organization he chose approaches the topic as a purely spiritual matter and tries to "Bible" your sexuality back to the place it needs to be.

    Needless to say, it didn't work. I had to find a girlfriend to keep my parents from constantly doubting me. My dad has assured me that if I ever show signs again, I'm out on the curb.

    Basically, I'm in it DEEP. And what complicates things is that I don't know who's right and who's wrong. I've been brought up my entire life to believe that my desires are immoral and abominable, but despite my prayers and my attempts at "deliverance," here I am.

    Has anyone been through something similar? Does this get better?
     
  2. Gravity

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    First of all, welcome to EC! :slight_smile: I'm sorry to hear about your situation though - it sounds like you've been through a lot. Hope this site proves helpful.

    It can get better, yes - but in situations like this, it probably won't unless you work on it. I'll tackle things issue by issue for a minute:

    First of all, as for "conversion therapy," don't feel weird that it didn't work. Every study ever done on it has shown it to have horrible "success" rates (i.e., it doesn't convert anybody); about the only reliable effect it has is to traumatize and/or confuse people. In that respect, if you're looking for answers on who's right and wrong here, I think that that therapy was the wrong idea.

    As for your parents - what does your mom have to say about all this? And how vocal is she in the situation? It sounds like she at least had a hand in convincing you not to pack and walk out, so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess she's at least more supportive than your dad, but that may not be the case. Can you lean on her for support? Or is she even in a position to support you, possibly in spite of your dad?

    Finally, I've been in somewhat similar situations. None of my parents (divorced and remarried, so I have four) are pastors, and none of them have ever called me the "f" word, but my mom and stepdad are pretty religious, and although my mom at least is very accepting, they both attend a pretty homophobic church, so I have to deal with some problems from that occasionally. To be honest, my response to the situation was just not to involve them in my life if they weren't going to be supportive. That may or may not be a totally realistic option, depending on how...well, dependent you are on them at this point in time. If nothing else, you could be out to friends at school (even some Southern Baptist universities will have their gay communities or gay-friendly students) and not to your family. But the realization that I came around to was that I could either put my parents' desires first and de-gay my life as much as possible to make them happy, only to end up resenting them for it; or, I could live my life the way I wanted to and work my way back in touch with them on my own terms, if at all possible. And ever since the day I chose to do the latter instead of the former, life has gotten better than I ever thought it could be. Still not perfect, of course, but definitely and noticeably better.

    What is your living situation over the summer? Are you back home with your parents, and if so, is that bringing up a lot of these thoughts again?

    Hang in there as best you can, and feel free to keep posting as much as you like - everyone here will be happy to read and respond. :slight_smile:
     
  3. takeitsaxman201

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    I am back with the 'rents for the summer. I was supposed to have my own apartment, but that fell through.

    Mom doesn't support the gay lifestyle by a long shot, but she is more emotionally supportive of me than my dad. She would probably go along with him on most things though; the only difference is that she'd make an effort to stay in touch once I was kicked out :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    I'm also in a sticky spot with the girlfriend. She's talking marriage, which is totally not fair to her. She's absolutely crazy about me, and I think the world of her, but idk if it'd work out in the long run. She deserves someone who's going to be devoted to her better than I can be.

    At this point, I'm at a stable place. I posted in another thread that I realized that even if being gay is a sin, it's not one I can take away on my own...that's the whole point of Christ's sacrifice. My only concern is to develop relationship...get closer to God and let Him show me what's true; I believe He equips us to live whatever life He has called us to, and that would include a gay life, if He so created me this way.
     
  4. Gravity

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    Didn't realize the girlfriend was in on the process - if she's not aware that you're "pretty much gay" (just using your words there), then it may not be the best idea to continue that relationship. As you've already noted, that's not very fair to her. Is there someone else that could just pretend to be your girlfriend in front of your parents? That might be a lot easier on you - assuming this other person is willing to go through with that (for the summer at least, perhaps?).

    If your spiritual life will help you sort through your feelings, then I definitely encourage you to use that - it will be a big help for you. Keep in mind, though, that there are many individual churches - and whole branches of Christianity - that can be very welcoming of gay people. It might do you more harm than good to try to force thinking about being gay as a sin into balance with living your life as a gay man. It sounds like you're already in the process of thinking through this on your own, which is good - keep it up. You already know enough to see through some of the things that people say just to be hateful. Also, if you're curious, I can recommend some great reads on Christianity and gay people. There's a lot more to be said than you might think, and the Bible may not be as explicit as you'd suspect.

    Too bad that having your own place fell through. The summer might be rough, but is there a way you can spend a little less time at the house? Maybe a friend that you can make extended visits with, or a job you could get?

    Continued good wishes. :slight_smile:
     
  5. takeitsaxman201

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    Having an apartment would have been nice...I would have had a job too :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: My parents live in a very small community with a barren job market...no chance of that. I do go to the gym a lot, which helps.

    I plan on having a conversation about this with my girlfriend and seeing where we should go from there.

    I do know that I can't keep up this double life for much longer.
     
  6. Gravity

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    It's good that you're planning on talking to your girlfriend. I think it's a really helpful (for you, as well as for her) decision to make.

    And the gym will be great! In addition to time to yourself, it'll probably help lift your mood. And if there aren't any jobs, maybe you could even just look for some volunteer work to do (hospitals, public institutions, schools, etc.?). The goal doesn't have to be making money - as long as it gets you some time to yourself it might be really nice.

    Double lives are definitely hard. I also went through that and it's killer, in a way I still can't fully describe to people who haven't done it themselves. Hang in there - you are already on the way to making this better.
     
  7. Chip

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    You're definitely in a tough situation.

    As I think you've come to realize, you're gay, God made you that way and... God makes everyone perfect. So there's absolutely nothing wrong with you. The issue comes with the way your parents (and, likely, most others in your community) are interpreting the Bible. I'd suggest getting the movie "Prayers for Bobby" from itunes (or it might be on Youtube) and watching it. Based on a true story, Bobby's mother was a hellfire-and-brimstone Christian who absolutely believed her son could be healed by God's work with adequate prayer. Bobby desperately wanted to believe this as well... and when it didn't work, he killed himself. Bobby's mother took the rest of her time on this earth to understand and make sense of things. The movie tells of her change in understanding about what most Christians teach about the Bible, and how there are other Christians, just as devout, who believe that there's nothing wrong with being gay.

    Also, on a practical and factual note, as Gravity said, conversion/reparative therapy, regardless of what flavor or methodology, simply doesn't work. Voluminous data supports that notion, all of the major psychiatric, psychological and counseling associations have come out against its use, and there are simply no credible studies showing any long-term success. So you can't blame yourself for that.

    How much longer do you have in school? Another year? It would seem that if you can get through the summer, the rest of the remaining time in school won't be so painful. I do think it's wise to try and keep the facade in place through the end of the school year, so you don't end up trying to finish school on your own. And once you've graduated, you can relocate to a place where you can have the life you want.

    It sucks to have parents who are so unbending and so ignorant that they'd rather have their child be miserable than face the truth... but unfortunately, it is a reality for many people.

    The good news is... you do have the EC community to help keep you sane. And you have quite a few people here who are in a nearly identical situation to yours. So you're far from alone, and I and the rest of the advisor team are always available to talk one-on-one if you find yourself getting too stressed out.
     
  8. takeitsaxman201

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    I have only a semester left of school: student teaching :slight_smile: After that, grad school will be my GTFO moment :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    And while I agree that God doesn't make trash, I do know that "sin," in whatever form it may take, corrupts our nature. I just haven't decided if this is sinful or not yet. But, like I said, I do know that God equips us for whatever we're supposed to be; I don't have anything or anyone to fear if He approves.
     
  9. Gravity

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    Oooh, grad school is an AWESOME GTFO moment. :lol:

    You know...well said. Good for you. :slight_smile:
     
  10. ArcherySet

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    If I believed in God (and I don't in any way shape or form, thank you hate-filled Christians for that) I would believe that he made me the way I am, just as my hair is black, and my eyes are a dark green with flecks of light brown, I believe that the way I was assembled is gay.

    I do however believe in genetics, hormone exposure (and the studies which lend to support theories), and prefer not to think that people can/should be forced to go against their nature, and my nature is to love men.

    So I say to you, just be happy, and be yourself. If your father and mother can only pull scripture out of a book in an attempt to fix you, well perhaps they should consider their own failings and fix those first. Not wanting to embrace your differences? Well that sounds like ignorance and cruelty to me, which is in the sphere of hate. Conversion therapy? Hate. Calling you a faggot? Juvenile. Bully. Hate. Typical

    Since your father sounds like a raging stereotype, I'd be curious to know who else he hates. Black people? Asians? Red heads? Muslims? Obese or left handed people? People who work on the Sabbath day?
     
    #10 ArcherySet, May 28, 2012
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  11. thylvin

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    Here's a shocker... Your're gay, no amount of therapy, corporal punishment, verses from a bible, what ever will change that fact!

    I would say be truthful to your gf. It's only fair to her. If you do end up marrying her, how long will it last? What kind of messy divorce will there be when kids are involved. I'd say spare her this and your future kids as well. They don't need this too, especially in the society we have today.

    As for the bible. Well there are several references about gay relationships, even king David was involved with his best friend. God only warns us against it. The bible say's that God knows you before you are even born, if this is the case, why did he let us be born gay if he's against it? It is a sin to live a lie. The bible says we do not only need to be truthful to others, but to ourselves as well. The bible went on further and states, "Do not judge, unless you be judged."

    All through life you'll get people that are not happy with the choices we make in life. But you know what, it is not them that has to live your life, it is you. So if it makes you happy, who are we to say it's wrong? Tell your folks when your not dependent on them any more. Your father might not want to speak to you after this, but your mom definitely will. Even in my own family, half of my cousins don't want to speak to me because of my sexuality. This used to eat me up inside, but you know what. I've come to the realisation that if they don't need me, then I don't need them either. It's not my problem that they can't accept the fact that they have a queer in the family!
     
  12. takeitsaxman201

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    I can't say that I agree with your theology there. Biblical exegesis is a required course at my university, and I've looked very hard at what the Bible says about homosexuality. The David/Johnathan relationship theory doesn't hold water in context or when you look at it in the ancient Hebrew or the Greek Septuagint.

    So I guess lemme walk you through the thought process I've been through to get to the decisions I've made today.

    I don't think a person is born a homosexual. I lean more toward the psychosexual development model myself. With that being the case, God doesn't make people homosexual anymore than he makes people straight. I don't think it's a conscious decision that anyone makes, but a developed identity. I do believe the verse that says,
    "There is no one who is righteous, not even one. There is no one who does right; no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless. There is no one who does good, not even one" (Romans 3:10-12)​

    So if it is a sin, it's just like every other sin, because everyone is born under that curse. I'd agree that it's a sin to live a lie (though, that's never stated explicitly in scripture, but i understand where you're getting with it), but the question is, what's the lie here? Could it be that this is NOT who God created me to be? That He has another identity for me, and all I needed to do all along was just trust Him to make me into that person and quit trying to change myself/letting others try to change me?

    So I've decided that I am not qualified to answer that question, because I'm not God and He hasn't sent a golden winged scroll from the sky with a detailed explanation. Sometimes His silences just mean to wait, trust Him and have patience. So that's what I'm doing. I'm waiting and trusting that He knows what's best; I'm putting Him in control of my future. I believe God to be just and merciful, so He'll guide me into what is right for me. Jesus explained that to His disciples in John 16:5-15:
    “But now I am going away to the one who sent me, and not one of you is asking where I am going. Instead, you grieve because of what I’ve told you. But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Advocatea won’t come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me. Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged.
    “There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me. All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’​
     
  13. seeksanctuary

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    Arsenokoites was never used in antiquity with our modern meaning of homosexual.

    "In our previous study of arsenokoites, we listed the first 56 uses of the arsenokoit stem to demonstrate that no ancient Greek writer used the word to mean lesbian or homosexual. There were a number of ancient Greek and Latin words Paul could have used in 1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10 if God intended to prohibit committed gay and lesbian partnerships.

    In our study of malakoi we demonstrated that malakoi usually referred to intellectual weakness or moral weakness or some kind of softness which implied effeminacy but malakoi was rarely, if ever, used to refer to homosexuality."


    anthropologist: When Same-Sex Marriage Was a Christian Rite

    "Contrary to myth, Christianity's concept of marriage has not been set in stone since the days of Christ, but has constantly evolved as a concept and ritual. Prof. John Boswell, the late Chairman of Yale University’s history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the "Office of Same-Sex Union" (10th and 11th century), and the "Order for Uniting Two Men" (11th and 12th century).

    These church rites had all the symbols of a heterosexual marriage: the whole community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar was conducted with their right hands joined, holy vows were exchanged, a priest officiatied in the taking of the Eucharist and a wedding feast for the guests was celebrated afterwards. These elements all appear in contemporary illustrations of the holy union of the Byzantine Warrior-Emperor, Basil the First (867-886 CE) and his companion John."


    Well, there you go.

    Homosexuality IS something we're born with. I have to go hunt down the resources, but apparently science HAS found out what causes it... *shrugs* But either way, it really, really doesn't matter. You are who you are.

    I'm not a Christian. I don't follow the Christian God, regardless of whether or not he exists. But I believe in a higher power, and I have no doubt that we are meant to love and be loved. As long as we aren't CAUSING HARM, and being gay doesn't cause harm, then it's fine. Love is good.
     
  14. Chip

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    There isn't any evidence in the research literature to support that idea, and there is substantial evidence to the contrary; for example, fraternal twins where one is gay and one is straight. Raised together, in identical circumstances, the sexual orientation differences often show extremely early in life (age 3 or 4). Likewise, there is other evidence that things such as hormone levels in the womb may impact sexual orientation.

    But there is basically -zero- evidence (other than from the religious right, and all of those studies suffer from experimenter bias, sampling bias, methodological problems, unwarranted conclusions, and the like) that there are psychosocial or other environmental factors. The APA commissioned a very detailed meta-study of every study done for the past 50+ years, and came to this conclusion as part of its decision to take a position against reparative therapy.

    If your theory were correct, reparative/conversion therapy would work, and it doesn't.
     
  15. Ianthe

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    We have two competing beliefs, that homosexuality is morally acceptable, or that homosexuality is morally wrong. From a Christian worldview, you must basically suppose that one of these is God's truth, and the other is Satan's deception. (I never have been, as I wasn't raised to be.) But still, I believe that one of these is good and true, and the other is an evil lie. Let's look at the results that holding each of these beliefs has in people's lives, so that we can perhaps determine which is which.

    When people believe that homosexuality is morally acceptable:
    • Gay people are truthful and open about their real feelings.
    • Parents do not disown their honest gay children, and continue loving them.
    • Gay people have as much support from their families as straight people, and are therefore able to complete college, and do other things that contribute to their future success, making it more likely that they will be productive members of society.
    • Gay people are well-adjusted psychologically, and able to pursue healthy, stable relationships.
    • Gay couples sometimes have children, through adoption, surrogacy, artificial insemination, or other means. Most of these children, when they grow up, love their two moms or two dads, and they are deeply offended that society refuses to recognize the validity of their families.
    • Because the gay person is accepted, family cohesion is maintained. Children of gay couples are able to have relationships with their grandparents.
    • Christians, and others who have maintained that homosexuality is morally wrong, must admit that they have erred; this requires humility.

    When people believe that homosexuality is morally wrong:
    • Gay people are ashamed, and deceive the people around them by hiding their true feelings.
    • Parents disown their gay children, refusing to love them, and put them out into the street, homeless.
    • These homeless gay teenagers frequently become prostitutes in order to feed themselves.
    • Gay people are filled with shame and self-hatred, and behave in self destructive ways. They become drug addicts, and have unprotected sex with random strangers. They engage in sexual acts that are intentionally degrading or harmful to themselves or their partner.
    • Gay people often remain in the closet and enter straight marriages. Especially in the case of gay men, the lack of any healthy outlet for their true sexuality ultimately leads them to infidelity--usually, again, hookups with random strangers; or else they become the clients of the teenage prositutes mentioned above.
    • Gay people in straight marriages often have children. When the gay person comes out (or is outed) the children must suffer through the divorce. Their family life is fractured. Everyone in the family suffers profound grief.
    • Sometimes, the self-hatred and shame felt by gay people leads them to suicide.
    • Risky self-destructive sexual behaviors engaged in by gay people who are ashamed and depressed dramatically increase the likelyhood of contracting sexually transmitted diseases, such as HIV.
    • Christians, and others, don't have to lose face by admitting error.

    These lists are not exhaustive, obviously. But I think you can get a pretty good idea from that. So what do you think? Which set of results is pleasing to the God you love, and which is the work of the deceiver?
     
  16. SkyDiver

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    Hey takeitsaxman201.

    I was born and raised in a very Christian household as well. My parents would make fun of gay people at the dinner table and degrade them in every way possible.

    When I told them a few years ago, they were in complete shock and didn't talk to me for a week. But it sparked a long journey for them of accepting me for who I am. My dad took a LOT longer, and was firmly convinced that I was going through a "phase", but now knows that I am gay. Always have been, always will be. Both of them are at the point now where they would gladly march in a pride parade and both support same sex marriage. It took a LONG time, but here they are.

    As for the "is it a sin?" question, I struggled with that for YEARS and YEARS. I got furious at God. I cut my wrist with a metal cross... just to show my rage and maybe even my hatred. I just couldn't even fathom that he would even SUGGEST that I am doing wrong for being naturally attracted to members of the same sex.

    That was about 3 years ago. I fixed that problem by turning away from God completely, and lived without him for years.

    But then last year, a friend brought me back.. and the issue came up again. After months and months of prayer and crying and depression... finally came a day when I felt like my answer just floated right in front of me. Homosexuality is not a sin. Having sex with someone of the same gender while in marriage is not a sin. It's not wrong.

    I know that MANY people would LOVE to disagree with me... but ever since then I've just felt so free. I am loved by God, I am mean to be gay, I am meant to marry and possibly adopt children. If I die, and I turn out to be wrong, well I'll deal with that when the time comes. But seriously... it doesn't make sense that homosexuality could be wrong. I agree with Ianthe 100%.
     
  17. takeitsaxman201

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    These are great arguments from a singularly empirical perspective.

    But my faith compels me to look at something uniquely different: a Spiritual one. One where a person can be deceived in such a way that they can find no empirical evidence to prove that they are wrong.

    If I didn't believe in an eternity, or a God, this would be a whole lot easier, but I do. Research aside, opinions aside...God has to be bigger than all of those things if He is God at all.

    I appreciate everyone's time and input, but I don't think I'm ready to be in this forum. If I truly want God's opinion on this, I really need to seek it from Him first and separate myself, even if only for a short while, from the influences and opinions of others...and yes, that includes my parents and my local church. This is something I need to discover for myself, on my own.

    The thing is, the research proves that conversion therapy doesn't work.

    But there have been people, who don't use conversion therapy, who have changed their sexuality. I'm very good friends with one man who has done this, and there are others that I know of...and I live in Arkansas, where there aren't that many openly gay individuals anyway.

    All that to say, I need to find some answers on my own for awhile. Thank you all for helping me realize that :slight_smile:
     
  18. starfish

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    Well good luck on your search.

    I would like to leave you with this thought. This was told to a colleague of mine by an priest when he was struggling with his sexuality. "God dosen't care who you love, only that you love."