I guess I must start at the beginning. I'm a 46 year old man. I was born in 1965 in Wichita, Kansas. My parents weren't religious or moralizing, but there was overt homophobia in my family. I can remember a little talk my dad gave me when I was 5 years old about "queers". From that I "learned" homosexuality was wrong. As I grew up, between the ages of 8 and 14, I had had sexual contact with other boys from my childhood, but I hid it due to familial concerns. I questioned my sexuality at the time, but since I tend to research and analyze most things, I came to the conclusions it was a "normal" childhood experience and that I was outgrowing it. From 15 onward, my sexual contact with other boys was non-existent except for one one boy whom I would play with about once a year. After I turned 18 years old those "experiences" diminished to nothing. In my teen years, I had plenty of interest from the opposite sex, and was quit proud of my ability to satisfy the girl I had in bed. I was never "afraid" to do anything she wanted, and genuinely enjoyed the sex. This went a long way toward convincing myself I was straight. When I was 19 I dated a 28 year old woman for several months, if that gives anyone any indication of how "successful" I was with women when I chose to be. My problem was I just wasn't satisfied emotionally with women. The sex was fine; what bothered me was my guy friend felt much more important to me than any girl. Additionally, I'd react almost jealously when a friend would get a new girlfriend. It wasn't him I was jealous over it was her; "How dare she steal my friend away!" I sometimes would wonder about my sexuality, but it was easy to conclude I wasn't gay, because I never fantasized about guys on a regular basis during masturbation, except at random times. In other words, I thought about women during masturbation more so than men. Additionally, I never ever looked at guys as "cute" or attractive. There were guys I was attracted to, and then they became my friends, but the attraction never manifested itself in a sexual way. Yet, all the while I would periodically question my sexuality, because the emotional bonds I had with my male friends would ALWAYS exceed those I would have with girlfriends. When I was 21 year old, I had an unfortunate experience with a gay man about 15 to 20 years older than me and it left me with a great deal of mixed emotions. This guy was a fixture at many house parties I attended at that age, and he was friends with the girl I was dating at the time. After a late night at a house party, my girlfriend and I ended up at this guy's apartment. My girlfriend needed to go home, but I wasn't ready to go home. This man stated he'd take me home, so my girlfriend left. After she left I had asked for a drink. He got me a mixed drink. I started to drink it and after about 10 minutes I started to become tired. He told me I could lay down on his bed... You can probably guess where it went from there. What left me with such mixed emotions was that although I was quite angry about having been "date raped", I was fairly conscience throughout the event, but couldn't move, so I remembered it all. What stuck with me the most was that on a sensual level it lead me to spontaneous climax even though this man never attempted to manually make me achieve an orgasm. The feeling of being the bottom in anal sex haunted me ever since that event, and I found myself fantasizing about being a bottom in anal sex more and more. As I progressed through my 20's I experimented more and more with men and anal sex. Even though I was terrified of sex contact with men, I slowly overcame my anxiety one sexual encounter at a time. And as I did so, I began to see more and more things I found "attractive" in men. Additionally, I started to see the "gay qualities" in my friends and would have a plethora of fantasies about some of them, because I was convinced those "gay qualities" I sensed might make them something like me. Another thing about my friends while I was in my 20's is that the vast majority of my friends were older than me, with the eldest being 10 years older. By the time I was 30 years old, I was in the navy and dating a woman I planned to marry. One night we're out at a restaurant and a gay acting and rather cute gay waiter served our table. I caught myself repeatedly checking him out with my girlfriend sitting right across from me, and which she never noticed, I came to realize that night that while I never checked out other women when I was with my girlfriend, I was checking out guys more and more. That lead me to an epiphany that if I ever cheated on my girlfriend it wouldn't be with another girl, it would be with a guy. This epiphany lead me to become more emotionally distant from my girlfriend, which then lead to us breaking up. After that I decided I wasn't going to deny myself any longer, and by my 31st birthday I had a boyfriend whom I dated for about 6 months, went to a gay bar for the first time, and came out to my family and to the navy, and I was honorably discharged under the DADT policy. A few months after leaving the navy I ended up back in Wichita, Kansas and within a month of moving back I had my second boyfriend. When we started dating we started going to the gay bars in town, and I was surprised by the number of "old friends" I had sensed "gay qualities" I was finding at the gay bars. After reconnecting with all these "old friends" it lead me to realize my it was my "gaydar", which had caused me to "sense" these "gay qualities". And as time progressed living openly gay, I learned my "gaydar" was uncannily accurate. By the time I was 33 years I was on to my 3rd boyfriend, but he was significantly younger than me at 18 years old. My prior two boyfriends were very close to my age, I found that the men interested in me and the ones I found interest in were all under 30. I dated the 18 year old for 8 years. We broke up, because he developed a drinking problem, and he began to mix alcohol with drugs like Xanax. I spent over 3 of those 8 years working with him, his family and my family to help him out, but in the end, I couldn't be codependent any longer, and I left him in June of 2006. Since then I've been single and I only wanted friends, but I found that even for friendship older guys didn't want much to do with me, and younger guys were enthralled with me. I tried dating guys as much as 20 years older than me and as young as 18. I discovered that many men my age were married, and while married "discovered" they had a same sex attraction, yet remained married. Additionally, I've discovered that too many men my age were only in it for the sex. As well, during these past 6 years have discovered a new found faith in my "gaydar" due to having intuitions about several different friends who, while very straight acting, still gave me a gay vibe, and then only to have these friends later confirm they had some "gay feelings". Something else I've done during these past 6 years, in order to better understand myself I've researched homosexuality from a historical perspective. Specifically Greek, Roman and Japanese history. I also studied the situation in parts of present day Afghanistan where sex between men is common, yet taboo. One of the things I took from all this was that the whole concept of heterosexuality and homosexuality are fairly recent concepts; only coming into existence since the 1850's, where it was promptly seen as a mental illness by the early field of psychiatry. I then was lead to the research of Alfred Kinsey, and his statistical findings, that when looked at through the prism of my own life, really made sense. On top of that, I read study after study concerning male prison populations in various nations, across various cultures, and found that almost universally men in prison, no matter what their previous sexual history, will turn to other men for sexual gratification, and a certain percentage will continue to seek men even after they've been released, which suggests a lot of who you chose to have sex with is situational. All of this has lead me to the philosophy that the current straight/bi/gay paradigm is a false one. I've come to the conclusion that physiologically we're all bisexual, but emotionally we lean toward one gender or the other. In other words we all are capable of being sexually aroused by either gender, and that societal pressures were as deterministic in partner choice as was anything else. And for men who didn't fit the stereotype of the homosexual man, they often found themselves confused by their emotional need for close male friendships. I also feel that the more open a society is to male homosexuality the more that bisexuality is the default state for both men and women in that society as was with the ancient Greeks, Romans and Japanese. Now to the crux of my problem; I have a young, gay/bi-curious friend named "Rick". Rick is 22 years old. He's the son of family friends and I've known him since about 2004-2005. In February of 2010, Rick introduced me to a friend of his named "Paul", and Paul turned 18 last September. As soon as I met Paul, I immediately got a gay vibe off him, but I never told him, because it's not my way. In December of last year Paul came out to me, because he knew I was gay, but Paul has never embraced his homosexuality. In fact, he reminds me very much of me at that age. He doesn't "act" gay and most all his friends figured he's straight. He "abhors" the idea of being gay, and is afraid to have sex with a guy, but has "played" with a few boys when he was younger. I advised him to take it slow, but don't fear it. I suggested he might find a friend from school he was certain was gay and then explore things with that person. Then in February of this year we were having a movie night at my house and Paul came over for the movie, and he had been drinking before he came over. During the movie Paul wanted to talk to me private. In private he told me I was the one he loved, and he wanted to have sex with me. I was graciously surprised by his admission, and told him if he really wished to explore this we could, but we were going to take it slow. After that we both returned to the rest of the group, but about 30 minutes later Paul stood up, looked right at me and said in front of everyone, "I wanna f**k this man," then grabbed my hand and made me follow him to my bedroom, where I did nothing to him. Oh yes, he was quite aroused, and yes, I really wanted to do something, but I didn't, because I had just told him we're going to take it slow. Since then Paul has been a confused mess, jumping from the certainty of his love for me, even going so far as to call me his "first love", to believing he's actually heterosexual and only loves me as a friend. He tells me his attraction to me is only emotional, and there's no sexual desire. He's said afraid of a relationship with me due to our age difference, as well as my HIV status. Additionally, he has a high degree of anxiety about having sex with a man... period, yet experiences an erection and definite arousal when with a man. I totally empathize on his anxiety, because when I was his age I'd often have anxiety and nervousness to the point of shivering when I was in a situation with a man I knew was going to be sexual. But to add to that, I do have my own issues, chief among them are issues of co-dependency and fears of loss. Ever since Paul made his revelation to me, I've been riding a tsunami of emotions with ups and downs tied to his emotional state. I've had to put distance between us in order to alleviate all the confusion in my own mind, and I've just now been able to start gaining perspective. Yet I don't want to lose this wonderfully talented young man in my life, so while I've put distance between us, I've also attempted to keep in contact with him, and maintain the very good friendship we have. As well, I'm going to remain open to the idea of a relationship when he's ready I've been inclined to want a relationship with Paul, but Paul is worried our "relationship" would be weird, and that he'd become infected despite practicing safe sex. And even though I'm inclined to want this relationship, I'm quite happy just being his friend, but where the problem arises is that when Paul and I are around each other we gravitate toward wanting the relationship. As a consequence he's becomes distance and aloof toward the friendship, while not wanting to lose the friendship. He says he does this in order to prevent a relationship from developing between us. Now, if you're still following this, I ask, am I crazy for even involving myself with Paul? If not, then is it really possible Paul could be straight? If not, how do I help him accept his sexuality? Irrespective of the answer to the previous questions, how do I keep Paul a close friend without the sexual/emotional tension getting between us?
not to be judgemental of your situation but i think you're way too old for this kid. he's 18, very confused about his sexuality and i don't think it's in his best interest to get involved with a man more than twice his age. regardless of how mature he may seem he's simply too young to be emotionally/physically involved with a man old enough to be his father. combined with the fact that he's uncomfortable with your hiv status, i say leave it alone. maybe you could be a mentor to him, but that probably won't work since you two already have romantic feelings for each other. i say leave it alone dude.
I'm sorry to seem rude, but apparently you didn't understand my questions. Here's the questions I asked... In my first question, I'm not asking about a romantic relationship with him, I'm asking if I should even be in his life at all. Is his romantic notions he had toward me always going to get in the way of us just being friends. See, I have no problem remaining friends, it's Paul that gets really scared he's going to "give in" and demand the relationship. In my second question, I'm asking if it's possible he is straight irrespective of whether or not he is aroused by men, because philosophically I feel it's very possible. He is a very straight acting young man, but doesn't know the first thing to do with a girl once he gets one. I've encouraged him to explore both genders, but he has a lot of anxiety in general... I'm trying to get him into therapy. In my third question, I ask how do I help him accept his sexuality. That's pretty self explanatory. It's not a request to have sex. And in my last question I explicitly ask how to keep him a friend while not letting sexual/emotional tension come between our friendship, which totally negates the idea I'm asking this board for permission to "date" Paul. In point of fact, I'm already a mentor to Paul, and I hope to remain a mentor to him. I consider him my figurative son, and love him dearly, but that doesn't mean our situation is sexual. In point of fact, Paul and I have discussed the age difference, and I've pointed out to him he's simply too young for me and he's pointed out I'm too old for him... But there's still that tension he feels when I'm around. And point in fact, Paul and I have discussed the whole HIV issue as well. He was depressed for a week after finding out I was HIV+ and frankly, even if there wasn't an age difference, my HIV status would have killed any chance of a relationship, primarily due to the attitudes I'm quickly realizing permeate the gay community and society in general. My point in writing this and asking these questions was not to get dating advice... it was how to deal with a very confused and emotionally wounded young man who I want remain in my life.
I ask, am I crazy for even involving myself with Paul? yes, because of the reasons i mentioned in my first post. If not, then is it really possible Paul could be straight? I doubt he's straight since you mentioned that he came out to you... If not, how do I help him accept his sexuality? You could try being a mentor to him but I doubt that would work since there is already sexual/romantic tension between the two of you, as pointed out in your original post. Irrespective of the answer to the previous questions, how do I keep Paul a close friend without the sexual/emotional tension getting between us? This might not be possible at this time. Remaining friends will be hard after you both established a physical/emotional attraction to each other. You're in very different stages in life and I think an 18 y/o sexually confused kid can't control his emotions like a 46 y/o man. Why put this kid through any unecessary heartache.
Frankly, it seems you're projecting your own biases here about age, but then I've found ageism a constant negative force throughout the gay community. Paul is attracted to me, because I'm older... you never thought about that, now did you? I'm already Paul's mentor, and I do not want Paul in my life for a sexual relationship. The whole gist of my questions is based on the idea I want to maintain my mentor relationship with him. Paul and I have discussed the whole age difference issue, and he's well aware he's too immature at this point in his life for a relationship with anyone let alone a relationship with me, but as I stated there's a realization he'll mature. Now the thing you really have failed to grasp here is I don't want romance advice, but more "mentoring" advice. That said, I only want Paul in my life if I can actually help him, and a lot of that is predicated on the concept of helping him deal with his paranoia about being gay in general, as well as in helping him deal with his feelings for me. Simply put, and from the view of another form of mentor-apprentice type relationship; if I were a teacher and had a student express desires for me, would that essentially ruin any possibility for the continuation of said "mentor-apprentice" relationship? I hope not, therefore I want advice on how to maintain that "mentor-apprentice" relationship. Another thing, one role of a mentor is to guide a person, often times from a point of confusion to a point where there's clarity. If anything I've helped lessen Paul's confusion, and now I wish to lessen it further, by helping him put his feeling for me in context and to put my feelings for him in context. Your advice is to ditch Paul, because it MIGHT result in a relationship, and that relationship would necessarily be harmful to Paul... but after reading your replies here, and reading some of your others posts, I'm going to have to respectively decline your advice on this matter, because you're expressing some seriously ageism, in other words - biased attitudes concerning, which I've found quite common for gay men in their late 20's and 30's, but also quite wrong and wrong headed. Now, can anyone else, please, give me advice not tainted by your biases? If you have an issue with people of differing ages even being friends, then simply move past this thread, because your opinion is not wanted.
lol you posted a question on an open forum dude...sorry i didnt give you the answered you wanted to hear. best of luck...
I want a real answer, and not someone's biases. It would be like if I were wanting advice on how to deal with interracial friendships, so why would I want the advice of a racist? The same applies. If I wanted advice on how to deal with an inter-generational friendship, why would I want the advice of an ageist?
I agree with these answers. I don't see bias in any of these. ---------- Post added 31st May 2012 at 12:04 AM ---------- I feel you should guide him to this community and let him interact with others that are in his situation.
If your situation was exactly the same, then I would say it wouldn't be a problem at all. The thing is that its not the same because, in your case, you also have feeling for him. That means that you are officially unable to be a good mentor for him at this very moment. The only way that I can see you being able to keep being his mentor is by setting some boundaries and even by distancing yourself a bit from him for a while. Part of being a mentor to someone is to realize when to step back and point him towards other resources that can help him out. Like the person above me mentioned, you might suggest EC to him and see if that helps him out.
You asked for it, you got it. I'm older than you are, I've been working with people of many different ages, cultures, sexual orientations for many years, and I've seen firsthand the good and the bad of relationships (friendship and romantic) with large age differences. So here goes. First and foremost, No. You should not be friends with Paul, you should not be mentoring him, and you should most definitely not be emotionally or sexually involved with him. It is clear from what you've said that Paul has a lot of issues, and the last thing he needs (in spite of what he says) is to have emotional involvement with someone old enough to be his father. While it would be theoretically possible for him to have a mentoring relationship with an older person, it should probably be someone who is straight, or at the very least, someone who has absolutely no sexual attraction and has exceptionally clear boundaries where s/he would never let anything sexual happen, simply to eliminate the sexual issues and confusion that he has. Clearly, you are not that person. Paul *thinks* he is attracted to you because you are older. Most likely, the issue is far more complex, and Paul is likely seeking, through a sexual relationship, a connection that he did not have with a parent or father growing up, or other projection issues going on. Additionally, there are clear emotional dependency issues (on both of your parts) which would almost certainly create an unhealthy codependency between the two of you, which would not be healthy for you, but could be devastating for Paul's emotional health and well being. TheEdend has it correct; you are too close to be able to be an appropriate mentor, and it is likely, given the detailed history you've provided, that you've got some boundary issues, which are common to people who have experienced the trauma issues you've had. Poor boundaries and healthy mentors are completely incompatible, and if you ignore the advice here, all you'll do is end up causing Paul a lot more problems than he already has. One of the policies that EC has in place to ensure that our advisor team is able to maintain healthy boundaries are "check-ins" where staff communicate about any potential boundary-related issues (such as a member developing attraction to an advisor) , and that is one of many things we do to ensure that our interactions with members remain professional, with clear boundaries. You have no such accountability, so you'd have no way of being able to identify when boundaries are being crossed. (This is clear because the boundaries have already been crossed, and you're still here asking if it's appropriate to maintain contact.) As others have suggested, the best thing you can do for Paul, if, indeed, your first concern is really his best interest and not your attraction to him, is to point him here. He can speak with me, TheEdend, or any of our other staff team he chooses, and we can help him find the appropriate level of support he needs. He clearly needs therapy; you could clearly benefit as well, based on the issues you've identified in your post. We can help him find low- or no-cost therapy, and provide community support that will help him find clarity with his feelings and determine what his true sexual identity is. Your making a break from paul is, as near as I can tell based on what you've described of your feelings about him, relationship to him, and your own issues, absoulutely imperative if you genuinely want to see him resolve his issues. You seem somewhat conflicted in that you are asking if you're crazy, and then saying you want to stay involved, so I hope you'll take the advice that you're getting from a bunch of people in a bunch of different ways and let him get the help he needs, and separate himself from you so that the two of you won't continue to have what is an already enmeshed and unhealthy dynamic. I hope this helps. Finally, I won't comment in any detail on your issues of sexual identity and bisexuality, except to say that the voluminous research literature on the topic doesn't support that idea at all.
well you are old but pretty hot ! i dont think the age is a problem but if he is not mature on the brain (he cant be) then better dont do a thing!
All I can really say is that getting involved with him, in any sense, isn't a good idea. I would keep him at a huge distance, and point him towards people and resources that can better deal with the issues he is facing.
Hi there, and welcome to EC. I think you may have responded fairly harshly to the answers you received. I can totally understand the responses that you got, because while you asked specific questions, which you restated in a following post because you felt they weren't answered, you preceded those questions with these two parargraphs. You make it very clear that you have feelings for this person, and that you'd like to have a relationship with him, and that you're only starting to be able to gain some perspective. It's pretty clear to me as well, having read your post, that it would be virtually impossible for you to have a healthy 'mentoring' relationship with this young man. So yes, I think it would be 'crazy' for you to keep trying. I think you'd both benefit from some space. Otherwise, I don't have anything to add to Chip's post.
Hi, Kehvan. I know you are going through a difficult time right now, because you just learned your HIV status. (I think you said it was just two months ago, in another thread, right?) I don't think the other posters realize that you are still right in the midst of the grieving process regarding your HIV, so they don't realize the effect that that aspect of the situation is having on you emotionally, especially regarding your attachment to Paul. They don't mean to be insensitive, they are just unaware of the full context of the situation. You mentioned that a lot of people have pulled away from you lately, and I know that you are feeling abandoned and very lonely, and scared about the HIV and what it's going to mean for your life. I think almost every post I've seen from you has referenced that you don't think you will be able to find partners to have relationships with, because of the HIV, so I think that that's bothering you a lot, and that you are very afraid of being alone for the rest of your life. In that context, I understand that it is painfully difficult to think about separating yourself from someone right now. And the idea of closing the door on ever having a relationship with him must seem just impossible--almost unbearable, with him being a beautiful young man who's professed his love for you, and you overwhelmed with fear that no one will ever love you again. I am so sorry, that you are suffering this way. Unfortunately, for you to have a healthy mentorship relationship with him, you would have to close that door. You would have to establish a boundary in the relationship, and it would be your responsibility to maintain the boundary, not his--he is way too confused to maintain the boundary right now, and in taking the role of mentor, you would be taking the position of power and responsibility. Do you understand? There would be times when he would want you, and you would have to refuse. Because he clearly isn't ready. Paul knows that a relationship with you wouldn't be right for him right now. He is too uncertain of himself, and he definitely isn't ready to take on the role that he would have to take on as you boyfriend. That's why he's distanced himself from you. But the problem isn't just that he'll give in to wanting it--it's that he knows you will, too. He knows that when he asks you, you will willingly have a relationship with him. So, the problem is really that neither of you is emotionally able to maintain the boundary. That's why it won't be possible for you to be just friends, or to have a mentorship relationship. I'm not going to say you have to cut him out of your life forever. But I think there needs to be a lot of distance between you for at least several years. Long enough for him to be really sure of himself, and long enough for you to be through accepting the HIV as part of your life. That's the only way you'll ever be able to interact with him without all this desperate need on both sides. Because right now, whatever relationship you have isn't going to be just about your feelings for each other--it's going to be about his desperate need to feel worthy and loved as a gay man, and your desperate need to feel worthy and loved despite the HIV. And that will not create a healthy relationship of any kind. I know that you are very lonely, and very much in need of friendship and support right now, so I'm really very sorry to tell you that I think you have to distance yourself. I think you will not find it as impossible as you think you will, to have a relationship. I think that you will probably be much less likely to find casual partners, but finding love and a serious relationship is a different matter. You might need to take a different approach to meeting people, and make friends instead of dating casually, but it should be possible for you to find love. I don't think your only chance is with someone who is in this kind of emotional turmoil, either--there are fully well adjusted people out there who won't let the HIV stop them from loving you.
I tend to agree most with Ianthe here, in that I suspect that a relationship of any kind at the moment would probably be very difficult, and that it might be better to put some emotional as well as physical distance between the two of you for now (actually, I kind of want to echo everything Ianthe said ). That period may be a few years or a few months or a few weeks, but regardless, with the attraction he clearly feels for you (based on what you've written here, I find it hard to believe Paul would be straight), and the discomfort you feel at the idea (that seems to be your dominant emotion about it from what I could tell), being friends would be very difficult. Not impossible, but very difficult. To me this is evident from even very early, when you started out by telling him you wanted to take things slowly, but the next minute he was standing up in front of people telling them all that he wanted to have sex with you. Hardly slow. At the very least, perhaps no more private conversations at parties where alcohol are involved? I also don't think the other variables here really impact this. I believe that at base, age really is just a number (it may come with other issues, maturity levels and such, but in that case those are the problems, not the age itself). I also don't think your HIV status really comes into play until you make a decision about relationship status - that can be addressed if you two were to decide to become involved with each other. What really pulls me into thinking some distance might be helpful is where you say things like this: It sounds to me like you see a lot of yourself in him, and are kind of already putting yourself in a "mentor" position for him. That's fine of course, but if that's how you feel about him, then it will be hard to be on equal footing with him in a relationship. Furthermore, if you can offer him that kind of support, that could arguably be more important for him than a relationship. Think what it would have given you to have that kind of support. And in its own way, such a connection with him could be just as fulfilling as a relationship, even if in different ways. Finally, since I don't think I've bumped into you before here, welcome to the site! The rest of your story here sounds pretty amazing, and I think you have a lot to be proud of (guiding yourself through your own realizations, research into gay history, coming out to the Navy and accepting an honorable discharge). I hope you stick around, I'm looking forward to talking some more with you. (*hug*)
