I feel like I don't belong.

It's a shame that the mass-media image of being gay is so flamboyant. I'm not into any of that either, am straight-acting, have no fashion sense and am a fairly major geek. Not the stereotypical gay - but then who is? I think we need to realize that being gay is like being left-handed (which I am). It is one aspect of who we are - but it doesn't need to define us. We can be proud of being gay without being flamboyantly gay (though I do have to admit I like the odd musical

Best,
Maxx

 

This might come off harsh, and I don't mean it that way. It's just I get frustrated by the fact that people have to feel like they don't belong within their own minority group.

You don't belong in the stereotypical community. Stereotypical is very, very much the key word there. If you think that the vast majority of gay guys are complete queens, then you're very misinformed. It's a stereotype like any other. It's like saying that all black guys will be awesome at basketball and all blondes are complete idiots. Just because that's what's perceived by the misinformed world does not make it true.

As far as I know, gay bars are the places that the less stereotypical guys go to find other guys. I've never been, but that's how I understand it to be. Just sayin'.

Think about this for a second: if pride were full of just ordinary people - by that I mean your run of the mill, relatively boring people - would it be worth going to? Would it be worth the media covering? Would it draw attention to the fact that yes, the gay community does in fact exist? No, it wouldn't. The fact of the matter is that stereotypically flamboyant gay guys draw attention, and that's what the media is all about. Your perception of pride is solely from what you've seen in the media, right? What about all the families and children that go? Do you think they're all stereotypically outrageous too?

I'm not saying that because you aren't stereotypical you can or can't go to pride, but if you look at it as in they're doing something the rest of us can't or don't want to do, we should be thankful. They're getting us noticed. Not to mention if all the "average guys" think like you do and don't want to go to pride, well... who's going to represent you? Nobody, that's who.

Pride is about being able to not only be open about your sexuality, but also be open about who you really are. When we're closeted, everyone is trying to "pass as straight". Now, when we're not hiding anymore, who do you think has the bigger change in their personality, the average guy (like you) or the stereotypical guys? It's such a large difference that it draws attention.

Really, if you want a guy who isn't a queen, how do you expect to find them if you don't look "gay" and they don't look "gay"? Call it attention bias or whatever you want, but of course if you're looking for "gay guys", you're going to be noticing the queens and not your average, everyday guys. That's just how it is. You need to consciously break down the stereotypes in your head and remind yourself that gay guys come in all varieties.

And just as much as you dislike the stereotypes that gay guys fall under does not mean you should "identify" less with gay guys. Gay guys are a category of guys who like guys. Unless you don't like guys, you identify with them. Segregating yourself from the "rest of the gays" does no good for yourself, them, or the rest of us.

 

I take it you haven't been to pride. If you had, you surely would have run into the bears, who are typically big manly bearded dudes much like you describe yourself. This is an entire segment of the gay community.

Of course, the majority of gay guys (and in fact, I think most straight guys as well) are somewhere in between the "queens," as you are calling them, and the bears.

Gay people have an extremely broad range of diverse gender expression--more so than straight people, really. (There are feminine straight men, but it's very much a minority, whereas I think it's more even for gay guys.)

Find the bears in your area, and you will be fine. You should be able to find them--they organize. Sometimes they have their own bars.

Bears have their own flag too, and it's all brownish and manly. You are free to carry that one instead of being all rainbowy.

But honestly--the butches and the queens are very friendly. As are the bears and the femmes and everyone else I've met in the community. (Also, in terms of friendship, I have no idea why you would avoid the butches, since they will tend to have some common interests with you--die hard sports fans and so on--but whatever.)

 

Not all gays are feminine or flamboyant or girlish. Anyways there are gays out there who likes other gays who is masculine(?) I guess is what you call it. Well, I'm sure that you are not the only one with that story! It's a big world !

 

Ok, I just want you to step in their shoes for a minute. How do you think it makes THEM feel, when people completely disregard them as people, just based on appearance or how they act? Doesn't feel too good I imagine. Just like overall, as a gay community, we get judged.

Just like how you are more "masculine" that's just a natural way to act for you, there are guys who are more "feminine." What you need to do, is stop judging others for an outward appearance, get to know them on a more personal level. Ever though why the more feminine gay men get frustrated with people? Well some that I know, tend to keep a barrier up, because people don't like them for something they can't control. Maybe they appear stand-offish, or "bitchy" but it's because they feel like they don't belong. That's just their personality. Just like how as a community we have to fight to let people understand us, on something that we can't control.

Think about it. Especially on dating sites, I've seen it all too often "St8 acting, no fems" it disgusts me, honestly. Yes, I know we have our preferences. What if you met an amazing guy, he was everything you wanted in a partner, he likes sports, video games, likes cars, he works out whatever and then maybe in his spare time he likes to do drag? Or he perhaps acts more feminine? Would you still not date him? It's just a thought.

This message isn't meant to be harsh or rude. That's not my intent. I just want people to think about what they're talking about when they keep talking about being "masculine" and not liking "feminine" guys.

Let me tell you though, I went to my first Pride this year. And there are a lot more regular run of the mills guys then there are drag queens or anything of the sort. It's all part of the media portrayal. And there's nothing wrong with being a queen!

So, just think about it. You could be missing out on amazing friendships with people if you don't open your mind to the community as a whole. It's not even a community really, if we keep judging each other. We're a diverse group, you just need to open your eyes more to see it. That cashier at the grocery store, he could be gay. Maybe even the bus driver. Or, that supposed feminine acting guy walking down the street, he's actually not gay. He's just confident enough in himself. So, really it's all stereotypes you're basing things off of it sounds, and what's shown in the media.

You can get involved in numerous clubs and things that cater to almost everything. If not, start one of your own. Here we have a gay hockey club, curling, football(soccer), etc. or you can join clubs that aren't specifically LGBT oriented. Something you enjoy, and you could meet others (LGBT) who joined the club out of something they enjoy. Video games, Magic the Gathering, Tabletop, Board Games, etc.

You can also join a sub-set of the gay community as Ianthe has stated; the bear community.

There are a lot of us who like video games and cheesy old horror movies. Comics and sports. But, you aren't going to know that judging people on appearances or how they act. People can surprise you. ^_^

 

I don't think this guy is judging anyone, he just feels the way I used to.When I first started accepting myself I felt like I didn't belong cause of all the femminine guys I saw on Tv, it made me feel really alone and I bet this is why he seems frustrated. The last thing he needs is poeople lashing out at him for his frustrations or a big speech about not judging femme guys. I know you feel alone dude but there are a ton of other masculine gay guys like me and you, we just aren't as visible. Cause we either aren't as out or just don't attract attention.Perosnally I love football and I'm a massive nerd, and I love other masculine guys! I used to think I was the only gay nerd before I found this forun a few days ago.

 

I'm not lashing out at him, my post wasn't even intended that way, I'm just stating from his particular quote "I've never understood queens" that I was trying to address. Because, that's just an outward appearance on a person. Their personality though, they might like playing video games, like sports, but you won't know because you already have preconceived notions of how that person is.

I understand that if you're either in the closet, or slowly in the process of coming out and trying to find someone like you to relate to. I completely understand, especially when you don't have anything else in the media that portrays another version of gay life. And, I didn't mean he was judging anyone.

Sorry for the misconception in my post. It wasn't intended to be rude. I was just trying to point out an opinion, merely stating that there can be feminine gay men who like the same things you do. And, also give him options as to how to meet other masculine gay men. That's it.

It's completely fine being who you are and what you like of course. And, I'm sorry that the OP doesn't feel like he fits into the community. Not a lot of people do, it seems. I was just giving an opinion of my personal experiences. Once you get more comfortable with yourself, come out to more people. you'll meet more people whom you connect with.

"Finally, I have no desire to go to a gay bar or any pride events. The idea of being surrounded by drama queens in booty shorts and fairy wings or butch lesbians in flannel and riding motorcycles doesn't do anything for me and doesn't make me feel part of a community. I don't even want to sport a rainbow anything since I'm a dude and rainbows feel...what, childish? Girlish?"

^ This also, seemed to be just stereotyping. To me at least. It's completely fine if you have no desire to go to these sort of events. Again, from experience. There's what's shown in the media, and then what you experience. If you haven't gone to a pride event, then you won't fully know what it's like. I've been in your shoes, believe me I have. Pride is actually a really great event, and it's so diverse. Although the likelihood of meeting someone at a bar/club/ is slim to none. At Pride you have geeks/nerds, furries, butch and feminine men, straight allies, drag queens, it's all over the place! My Pride they had things you could sign up for, to meet people with identical interests.

I'm not hating on you for feeling the way you do. I've just had those feelings like you have before when I was in the closet and as I was slowly coming out. So, now I've been out for about 4 years. And I've learned more, gained more life experiences that I'm just trying to share.

You can find people who are like you, you just have to get yourself out there...

My reply is all over the place, but that's my 2 cents.

 

I went to class and came back now, and reading over what I put before it sounds really, really harsh. So I'm sorry about that, it wasn't at all meant like an attack.

But I do think that part of what's needed is a mentality shift; as soon as you acknowledge that the stereotype is not the majority, just what the media portrays as the majority, a lot of your concerns suddenly disappear.

 

The big secret, of course, is that there is no single community. There are lots of gay men who would love to date someone like you, and lots of us who are just like you. I tend to be more of a "man's man" myself (though quite frankly, I find that phrase incredibly ironic, since I am quite literally a man's man, after all). There are many communities - just find out where yours is in your area.

One slight word of caution though - while I definitely realize that the gay community you seem to have in mind can be judgmental, some of them might very well be open to including you in their circles. Just make sure it's them who's doing the excluding, and that you're not pre-empting them instead of giving them a chance. Not everybody wants everyone to be the same. After all, on a large enough social picture, they're in the same boat as you.

EDIT: okay, this seems to have become an issue in this thread already. Hopefully I'm not adding to that, cause what I'm really interested in in this thread is the fact that you, the OP, feel marginalized - and at the end of the day, I don't want any lgbt people to feel that way. We all deal with that enough as it is. 10-4.

 

I know, and I really hate that.
I'm a bit in your position as well. Well, I'm not muscular, more leaning on the feminine actually but with "straight" interests/taste: games, movies, music,... So I feel isolated by myself, I can't belong to any groups.
Personally I blame the media for stereotyping us. Even in the minority that is us, we still have a diversity of people with colorful backgrounds. From what you said, I take it that you get along perfectly fine with straight people? Maybe you really belong to that group? What's wrong with that group?
I'm sure there are many people like you out there. You're not alone believe me.

 

True enough. I hope you find something - please do let us know if you do, as there are several people on EC in your same position now.

 

I'll tell you that your personality is surprisingly common in the gay community! You should have met my ex-boyfriend... I had a hard time believing, at first, that he was even gay. Then we had sex.

The point is is that you're not alone. I myself might not be hyper masculine, but I tell ya, there are plenty who are. And you know what? It doesn't even matter either way.

 

I am not flamboyant or anything even close to that either. I am masculine to be honest, I work out daily, play sports, etc. No one that I didn't tell even knows I am gay, but I am. There is no way to be gay, you are who you are. No one says that you have to be flamboyant to be gay.

 

I should say I think a lot of the confusion or anger here seems to be from poorly defined meanings--I'm sure the words masculine and feminine are just not granular enough. Sometimes, as a short hand, I'll say that when it comes to guys, I prefer those who are a bit more 'masculine' and am less attracted to those are feminine, but in retrospect, that seems off.

If your definition of 'masculine' is some big, gruff, bushy-beard bear daddy/trucker type, sorry. That's not what I'm interested in in the least. Yet, for some people, that's the image that the word 'masculine' will elicit. For me, I'm imagining someone more jock-like, athletic and fit, and who doesn't speak with a particularly-animated tone of voice. But that doesn't mean they have to have a basso-profundo voice.

I actually like guys with some feminine traits--soft-spoken, sensitive, occasionally flirty. But I suspect a lot of people who profess to hate 'femmes' won't be against these traits either. But I'd certainly call them feminine traits.

I think what some people are turned-off by is a certain over-the-top dramaticism in behavior, as if their entire life is a musical (sorry to use that stereotype...I actually kinda like some musicals...and when they come in small doses). It's fine on stage, but when every thought is animated by jazz hands, it can be annoying to be around for some people.

With that said, I'm open to becoming attracted to someone with the more over-the-top qualities, but I generally find it off-putting in both men and women. I respect your rights to behave in whatever way you feel fit, but don't expect me to find that attractive.

Lesson: Don't use terms like 'effeminate' when you really mean something else or can use a more apt and specific description.

 

quoting frozenandbroken: "Just like how you are more "masculine" that's just a natural way to act for you, there are guys who are more "feminine." What you need to do, is stop judging others for an outward appearance, get to know them on a more personal level. Ever though why the more feminine gay men get frustrated with people? Well some that I know, tend to keep a barrier up, because people don't like them for something they can't control. Maybe they appear stand-offish, or "bitchy" but it's because they feel like they don't belong. That's just their personality. Just like how as a community we have to fight to let people understand us, on something that we can't control. "
Add to that, that in our culture it's exactly the self-defined 'masculine' patriarchal men who are ALL our oppressors. Those 'faerie' fem men you dis are on the front lines fighting these false border definitions for who and how we love one another.
I think you might do well to meet and talk with some of those you feel so superiour to cause you look like the oppressers--and maybe you might find you have some consciousness raising to do.
I will put on my camisole and eyeshadow and give your big bear body a big hug and kiss. But then, lets sit down and do some serious talking and thinking about shit here.