This "interalized homophobia" deal.

[BudderMC]

So, I've made my fair share of posts on here stating my general non-preference for stereotypically flamboyant gays (amongst other things) that were suggested by some to be a bit of internalized homophobia, but I was pretty adamant against having it. I'm not entirely sure if it's the cause of this too, but I was out with two very accepting friends for most of the day and I checked out quite a few guys (just people-watching)... only to feel really bad after.

I dunno. Let's theorize for a second that this is internalized homophobia and I'm experiencing more of it than I'd like to say I am. What exactly do I do about it? I know in every logical sense of the world that there's nothing wrong with being gay and I'm totally cool with it. Reminding myself of this hasn't really done much up until now. I guess I thought that if I faked having no issues with being gay that eventually I'd believe it... but I'm starting to believe that that really isn't the case.

Anyone? I'm intentionally "being gay" (read: purposely trying to act not at all closeted) this weekend since I'm pretty far out of town and with friends I'm out to, and I'd like to stop feeling bad about myself every time I push my boundaries.

[prism]

"We hate most in others what we dislike in ourselves."

I will never say this out loud, or use it to hurt others, but I greatly dislike the stereotypical gay culture and will never attend a "Pride Parade."

[Gravity]

I think that just being out of your element and pushing yourself to act "more gay," as you say, might be making you feel uncomfortable on its own. I don't think it's a bad thing - pushing your comfort zone boundaries is healthy, and you're taking it in a healthy direction, namely, promoting your own self-acceptance.

On its own, showing a preference for more masculine gay men doesn't necessarily mean you have internalized homophobia. It just means you have a type. I think the problem would come about when you started not wanting to be around "less masculine" (so to speak) gay men, or were avoiding socializing with them at all.

Keep pushing your boundaries - acting less closeted - and don't get too down on yourself for being a tad bit uncomfortable. In a way, that's the point, after all. If you need to tone it back a bit to make sure you're having fun, then that's fine. But don't doubt yourself - you're just adjusting to a new situation.

[Tetraquark]

It does sound like there might be a certain amount of internalized something*, probably homophobia.

Even if that's not the case, I think that when it comes down to it, the only thing that gets rid of feeling bad about something is doing it repeatedly. Your brain gets accustomed to it, and after a while, it just isn't a big deal anymore. There's also going to an extreme in order to make something just barely outside of your comfort zone seem not so bad in comparison. In this case, that would potentially mean coming up with the most stereotypical behavior you can think of, try it out for a day or two, and then let yourself fall back to something more comfortable. Sounds like you're already doing that, so there's really just the repetition left.

*I don't just say homophobia because there could be other reasons, such as a blanket internalized fear of sexuality of any kind, that could have a similar effect.

[vere]

What do you mean by intentionally "being gay" ? You shouldn't feel pressure to act a certain way due to your sexual orientation.

At any rate, I can relate to feeling some qualms about my sexuality, largely due to how I feel others perceive gay people. Do you feel this way too? In other words, are you afraid to push your boundaries because of genuine internal discomfort, or are you afraid of what others will think?

[olides84]

Yeah like vere I wonder if you are still uncomfortable about how others perceive you. For example, when you were checking out hot guys, did you mention that to your friends - "ooh, he's hot!" Similar to what your straight guy friend might say about a girl. I think a lot of it comes down to confidence. Of course it takes confidence to be out, but it's another step up I think to "being gay" as you put it. Like others have said, it takes time to be comfortable when pushing your boundaries.

[cscipio]

I don't know if this is helpful or just adding to the fire: You like what you like. I think that we're quick to apologize for disliking traits in people because those same traits happen to be matched to a stereotype we're trying to diminish. What I mean by that is this: It's very likely that you dislike people who behave in a flamboyant way not because it's homophobia, but because you find that behavior trait, in and of itself, annoying. Equally as much as you may (or may not) find country music, jocks, or musicians annoying.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if I couldn't stand personality trait 'x' and 'x' also happened to be associated with homosexuality, I'd still dislike trait 'x' regardless of its associations and it would be separate in my mind.

[pinklov3ly]

Originally Posted by cscipio

I don't know if this is helpful or just adding to the fire: You like what you like. I think that we're quick to apologize for disliking traits in people because those same traits happen to be matched to a stereotype we're trying to diminish. What I mean by that is this: It's very likely that you dislike people who behave in a flamboyant way not because it's homophobia, but because you find that behavior trait, in and of itself, annoying. Equally as much as you may (or may not) find country music, jocks, or musicians annoying.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if I couldn't stand personality trait 'x' and 'x' also happened to be associated with homosexuality, I'd still dislike trait 'x' regardless of its associations and it would be separate in my mind.

I agree

I seem to be having this same problem, I feel like I'm living a double life sometimes. I can't hang with people and feel comfortable being openly gay I try not to offend anyone especially when it comes to PDA. I feel like I have to be more reserved and since I'm a biromantic lesbian, it's hard to be openly gay around men. Which created internalized homophobia within myself, I feel kinda bad sometimes for being myself, which is totally stupid.

My advice for you as someone mentioned, act gay, it'll most definitely help you become more comfortable. I act really gay around my brother and his friend, it's quite funny actually, I guess I'll start acting gay around everyone else.

[Bobbgooduk]

I read your post this morning and have been thinking about it off and on since.

Last night, I watched a German film Sommersturm - you might know it - in whcih there are a bit of dialogue among a group of gay rowers about flamboyant gays. It just caught my attention. The gist was: why do you have to be so "girlie" - homosexuals like men, not girls.

I think you are not being judgemental by saying what you prefer. Like you, I want my partner to be masculine, not feminine. But I accept that there are others that are looking for something different and there are those who wish to express THEIR difference by adopting a different approach - flamboyant if you like.

To each, his own.

I have a preference for men with red hair and hairy chests. It does not mean I look down on men (or women!) who do not meet these criteria. My partner meets neither, but I wouldn't swap him!

In your mind, you have an ideal for yourself and the partner you aspire to.

A preference is not a prejudice unless you allow it to be.

[BudderMC]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'm still at a friend's so I only skimmed them a little bit and I'll read them more later, but I wanted to clarify a bit. I guess when I posted last night my head was all over the place and I didn't emphasize correctly.

I get that it's okay that I don't like flamboyancy in gay guys because I don't like it in anyone. By "acting gay", I basically meant do all the things that I intentionally avoided while closeted that dictate that I like guys. So things like talking about guys, checking them out, etc. It's not so much an issue of "I'm not stereotypically gay enough".

I think my issue was more about the fact that I'm in a situation where I can (theoretically) be very, very out yet seem to be unable to. I'm not especially flamboyant or anything. But the fact that I should be comfortable doing it here and am unable to... well, it seems to not bode well. If I can't be comfortable in my own skin, even in a place where I can be out, what am I going to do once I'm actually "out" and finally have the opportunity to get on with my life? I said it before, I thought that faking it long enough would suddenly make that discomfort go away, but I'm believing more and more that it isn't the case.

But yeah, thanks guys. I'm just trying to leave it off my mind while I'm here, so I needed to vent somewhere.

[BudderMC]

Eh, I forgot what I wanted to say before (geez I'm scatterbrained today). Point was, I can talk about coming out and the serious stuff no probs, but not the casual, everyday side of being gay. How do I get to that point where the everyday stuff transitions from an awkward topic to something less... strained?

[cscipio]

I think I understand what you're saying. The fact that where you are it's OK to "be gay" not necessarily as in 'acting gay', but free to check guys out, talk about likes and dislikes but you're still uncomfortable to do so as if you're still keeping yourself in check and being careful about what you say, how long you stare, and stuff like that?

[awesomeyodais]

Just a thought - Let's say you're in a place where homophobia is not a big problem, where you don't know many people and the ones with you already know... So theoretically it's "safe" to notice good looking guys and look a bit longer than a casual glance (in a respectful manner of course, not like a bunch of drunk frat boys at a strip club hehe).
What happens next? Especially if that cute guy happens to turn out to be gay, and interested? Is this the "next step" you're afraid of, and trying to avoid by hiding every shred of possibility or interest?

[BudderMC]

Originally Posted by cscipio

I think I understand what you're saying. The fact that where you are it's OK to "be gay" not necessarily as in 'acting gay', but free to check guys out, talk about likes and dislikes but you're still uncomfortable to do so as if you're still keeping yourself in check and being careful about what you say, how long you stare, and stuff like that?

That's pretty much spot on. While closeted, it was keeping myself in check because I wouldn't dare let anyone get a hint at my sexuality (the major denial stuff), but now that I say I'm fine with it, I should be ending that behaviour, yet I'm not. When I challenge that mentality (like checking out guys), then I feel uncomfortable. And I know that'll cause issues once I'm actually out.

Originally Posted by awesomeyodais

What happens next? Especially if that cute guy happens to turn out to be gay, and interested? Is this the "next step" you're afraid of, and trying to avoid by hiding every shred of possibility or interest?

Also pretty spot on. I'm not necessarily looking as far as finding a boyfriend (or even a date, though I wouldn't complain ), but I guess I worry that I'll never even hit that point if this mentality keeps up.

[TheEdend]

How do I get to that point where the everyday stuff transitions from an awkward topic to something less... strained?

Honestly, its all about practice and just doing it over and over again until it doesn't feel weird or new.

I get what you mean, though. When I first came out to my friends I told them "lissten, I'm gay, but I'm not going to talk about guys with you guys" and that was that. I wouldn't put my input with guys or answer anything that was "gay" because I simply wasn't comfortable with it. Then after some time you sort of just push yourself through the discomfort and little by little it stops being a big deal at all.

Think about it. When you first starting coming out to yourself you probably couldn't easily say "I'm gay" or even type it would be weird. Then with time it sort of just became easier. Same concept applies.

So, in short, yes faking it only takes you so far. Now its time to actually start pushing your comfort zone to its limits. Little by little you will get there

[BudderMC]

Originally Posted by TheEdend

Think about it. When you first starting coming out to yourself you probably couldn't easily say "I'm gay" or even type it would be weird. Then with time it sort of just became easier. Same concept applies.

I guess I never thought of it that way, thanks.

Well, I'm finally back at school now, and as soon as I stepped foot out of that car I realized how much I already missed the comfort of that weekend, despite my feeling uncomfortable. Apparently pushing myself paid off in some small sense, even though I wasn't having guy talk at every single opportunity, I guess I internalized the idea that if I wanted to approach that topic I could freely. A small victory, but I'll take it.