The Bible and gay relationships

I remember struggling with the same thing for a while. The way I see it is that everyone interprets the Bible differently and you cant base your own views on something someone else said. Ive always said that God loves everyone and wants them to be themselves, no matter who they like.

 

Because its never wrong to Love

so dont be afraid, and never doubt that, because at the end of the day, even atheist make laws that try to prohibit fear and promote love, even if they are still getting it wrong.

 

When I was in grad school, one of my very good friends was a Catholic priest who has written several books on religion and gay people. He was also an openly gay man.

One of the interesting things that he observed was that the original Protestant movements broke from the Catholic Church because they felt like the Church was placing itself as an intermediary between people and God. And they felt that the Catholic church focuses too much on sin and good works and not enough on each person's unique relationship with God.

So, when I hear these stories about Protestant denominations focusing so much on telling their congregants what is wrong, what is right and how to conduct themselves sexually, I think about how they've fallen back into the very thing that they left the Catholic Church to get away from.

Your relationship with the God that you believe in is a personal relationship. While these men that spoke at the Church camp have found their way, you must also find your own way. That means reading, studying and trying to understand why a person would be created gay if being gay were "wrong".

But one thing that I will ask you to think about since it was a Christian camp. If you've read the Bible, you know that Jesus spent a lot of time talking about caring for the poor, healing the sick and living a more modest life. He had very little to say about sex and sexuality. With that in mind, how many of the sessions at the camp talked about public service, charity and helping others versus topics like sex, purity, pre-marital sex, and homosexuality?

 

Hey fiddledeedee! Have you ever heard of John Shore? He's a Christian with a blog and is strongly in favor of same-sex marriage and supporting lgbt rights (He's also extremely funny!) I've found a lot of what he has to say really helpful and you might too!
LGBTQ & Christians | JohnShore.com

I'm guessing from what you've said at the camp they used the love sinner, hate the sin argument when it comes to homosexuality. Basically it's ok to be lgbt as long as you don't act on it. What I dislike greatly about this argument is that it instills shame in lgbt people. It tells lgbt people that your love isn't good enough, isn't worthy to be shared. And as we know, being lgbt is a part of who you are because it isn't just behavior, it is romantic, physical, and emotional attraction. It is about love. And sexuality is our way of expressing that love. To tell people that they cannot share that love because it is wrong, is telling them that their love is wrong and love is never wrong.

God wants us to get closer to him, not to pull away from him. And if you constantly live in shame of yourself, how can you possibly become closer to God?

Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Love is the greatest commandment. Yes, it's true that the certain parts of the bible says homosexuality is wrong. But certain parts of the bible support slavery, certain parts of the bible support the subjugation of women. Certain parts of the bible were used to support racism. Yet we all know those things are wrong. Yes, the bible can still be applied to modern times but you also have to realize that a lot of the laws in the bible really only apply to those in that time era. And this isn't just my conjecture, but a lot of theologians also believe this which is why people don't follow the leviticus passages (yet they still love quoting it hmm :dry

I've been to some of these Christian retreats and when it comes to sexuality, there is always an emphasis on how men and women complement each other and that's the way God intended it to be, man and wife. But life isn't so simple. We know that there are people born with both sexes. People who are trans. There are straight people who defy the gender roles and according to the bible, every man and woman has their place. These rigid gender roles and topics of sexuality just cannot be applied to everyone because we are all different. And to force everyone to fit into a certain mold for no real reason other than that's the way it's supposed to be doesn't make sense and ends up making everyone miserable.

I think it is a greater sin to tell people that they are defective and that their love is wrong , than it is to act on same-sex desires that really don't harm anyone else. Because that love the sin, hate the sinner quote isn't even in the bible and only causes people to feel ashamed and wrong for something that does no harm to others. Anyways, I hoped this help a little bit. It might be helpful if you could specifically explain what they said in camp that has made you doubt your pro gay theology.

 

Back to the original question, I've struggled a lot with faith and religion. At this point in my life, I can honestly say I don't know what to believe - and I'm okay with that. I've got an entire life to figure things out.

But what they said at that camp isn't the best advice. Listen - the basic point of Christianity is to live your life as close to Christ as possible. Be a good person. Do what he did. He said nothing about sex, or homosexuality. He never got that involved in people's personal lives and never judged those who did wrong. That's what makes a good person all around, and that's what made Christ a good person.

Whether or not God exists, no one can deny that Jesus' teaching's are fundamentally good things. They simply try to get people to be better to one another and make a better world to live in.

But those people who claim to never pursue love... that's their choice. God isn't telling them to do that. They're doing that based on what they believe. There isn't anything wrong with that, but they are missing out on something massive in their life - love. Love is a huge thing for human beings to have and want and desire for. At some point in their lives, odds are, their going to drop to whole act and eventually try to find love. It's almost impossible unless you're incredibly, incredibly determined and in an environment (i.e. nuns, monks, etc.) to do such a thing.

Well you have the choice to live a life in fear of your choices, or be brave and branch out a bit. If God created everything - EVERYTHING - he created homosexuality. It's nothing humans just came up with one day.

Because humans are creatures of habit. We naturally like what is normal and aren't always fond of change. It takes many generations to get past issues often times. In the US, for example, it took quite a while for different races to finally accept each other and realize it was okay to be in the same building.

Plus, when people are grown up taught one thing - like how homosexuality is wrong - they may grow up with that continued belief and pass it on. It's normal, but these beliefs are dying out in the Western World. Progress is being made quite well.

Don't let religion scare you into having it make the choices for you. The point of having Jesus in your life is to give you peace and strength. If you start having fears of eternal damnation and what other Christians think of you, you're probably doing it wrong. It doesn't matter what people think. Jesus didn't give a crap about who was with him, but he loved them all. If Jesus was around in modern times, I 100% assure you there'd be homosexuals in his group, along with the prostitutes, druggies, outcasts, etc.

 

Hey Fiddledeedee.

I wrote something a bit over a month ago on this very topic. I'll post it here using the spoiler box, because it's rather long. It should touch upon what you're thinking and experiencing, point one and two are the most important for you.

It sounds like these two men are from Exodus International, or some other similar group. For years - longer than you've been in this world, unfortunately - groups like this have promoted the concept that they could "cure" being gay. It is only recently that Exodus has given up that ridiculous fight, and finally admitted that being gay can't be cured.

Now, it seems that they are intent on promoting either celibacy or encouraging people to live straight lives anyway. Rather than being angry at these people, all of whom are gay themselves, I pity them instead. They're living lives of shame and fear. They are denying themselves even basic love and affection because they're afraid.

All their lives they've been told that they're wrong, that their sick, that they're sinful, that their perverts, and abominations before God. They believe it, and that alone is sad. What is worse is that they're spreading it to young people such as yourself. They put a happy smilie face on it; they don't foam at the mouth and call us names anymore - that is no longer socially acceptable.

However, the message is still the same even if it is delivered slightly different: Something is wrong with you. You're not okay. What you're feeling is wrong.

However, if you're a Christian then you believe God created you. You believe that God created the animals. As LGBT you know for a fact that you didn't choose to be LGBT. We also know that there are numerous animals who also display homosexual behavior.

In order to hold their belief, you must therefore believe that God created you to punish you. If you believe that God creates people to punish them, then that is not consistent with the belief that God is a benevolent deity. If God is not a benevolent deity, and is perhaps malevolent in nature, then what is the purpose in serving him when you're likely doomed either way?

However, if you do believe God is a benevolent deity then believing homosexuality is wrong is not compatible with that belief. Simply because being gay isn't a choice. I go into more detail in the longer post below.

Spoiler

POINT ONE: THE BIBLE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY

This may be confusing to understand because of what you've been taught. However, it is rather easy to grasp once it is explained.

There are passages in the Bible that talk about same-gender sexual acts. These acts are indeed condemned. However, when you are reading ANYTHING - whether it's the Bible or something someone else has written - you have to read it in the context that it was intended. To do that you have to understand the perspective of the individual doing the writing.

To understand the individual passages in the Bible dealing with same-gender sexual acts you have to understand the culture and context in which they were written. This is a very easy thing to do even without cracking open a history book on ancient Jewish traditions, beliefs, customs, and laws.

How do I know this? Because homosexuality wasn't understood until modern times. The word homosexual didn't even exist until around 1870, and it was introduced by a German psychologist. This was the very beginning of our modern understanding of homosexuality.

We understand homosexuality to be a separate orientation from that of heterosexuality. In other words, we do not consider them to be the same thing. All creditable science points to the fact that you do not choose to be a homosexual, and that it is something that you are born with - that means it isn't a choice. It's something you have no control over.

If you look at history as a whole, you'll see that same-gender sexual relations have been viewed differently throughout time. Some cultures have idolized same-gender relations. Some have condemned them. None of them, however, understood them as we do.

How did the various authors of the Bible view homosexuality? Well, it's easy to understand if you view Biblical passages in full. In most cases what you are going to find is that same-gender sexual relations are talked about in the context of idolatry. There is an important reason for this.

That reason is because they didn't view homosexuality as a separate sexual orientation. To try to give understanding to their world view from our modern eyes, they looked at everyone as being completely straight. There was no such thing as homosexuality.

The Bible, as a whole, isn't a very pro-sexuality document. However, it spends an overwhelming amount of its time attacking straight people. Not gay people. Of course it would do so, since it didn't know homosexuality even existed.

When they saw someone engaged in same-gender sexual activity, they viewed it exactly as they'd view something like adultery. (And if you actually read the Bible you'll realize just what a dim view they had of adultery.) If it was taking place among Jews, it didn't help much because the individuals were likely married to someone of the opposite sex. Of course, all marriages were arranged by families, so the individuals in question had no choice. The concept of marrying someone you love is a rather modern concept.

People who engaged in same-gender sexual acts were in their minds overwhelmed with lust. In their minds such individuals must be possessed by some sort of lust-demon, because having sex with just the opposite gender was no longer enough, they had to have sex with both genders! They were out of control!

Same-gender sexual relations, in their eyes, was just an excessive amount of sexual lust. You weren't going to have sex with just one gender (the same gender), but both genders, and you were going to do that because you were out of control.

This is where idolatry comes into play. They were making the argument that this excessive amount of lust was caused by the sin of idolatry.

To understand what this means, this is the equivalent of the Bible saying the world is flat, and that a mental disorder such as schizophrenia is caused by demonic possession. This is the way the people of the time viewed their world. It's not a flaw, it's ignorance - a lack of understanding and of knowledge.

We are no longer ignorant. We understand that there is a difference between heterosexuality and homosexuality. We understand that homosexuality is not a result of an excessive amount of lust.

As I said previously, the Bible as a whole takes a dark view on sexuality in general. This is a byproduct of the extremely misogynistic culture of the time. Women were viewed, largely, as extremely unclean and impure individuals. Thus, having sex with a woman risks her tainting you with her impurity. You see this in the extreme purification rituals required for women, particularly when they're menstruating.

There was, of course, a huge diversity of views among the Jews of that time, different sects, and not all of them promoted exactly the same ideas. Jesus was of a different sect (it's still being debated which one) than the more mainstream Jewish sects of the time. However, as a whole the culture could be viewed through a similar lens as that of the modern day Taliban when it comes to issues around women.

Since they viewed sexual orientation only through the lens of everyone being heterosexual they take a dark view of sexuality in general. It's unclear exactly how they'd feel about male-male sexuality if they viewed homosexuality as something separate entirely, and most importantly, natural in human nature.

Other cultures that had similar extremely misogynistic views toward women elevated male-male sexual relations over that of male-female. An example of this is ancient Greek culture. They viewed male-male love as superior to that of male-female love. They held this view because they viewed women as inferior.

What is important to understand, though is that it is all rooted in misogynistic thinking. It is the belief that anything "feminine" (or women in general) is weak, bad, corrupt, or tainted. We obviously no longer hold those views.

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POINT TWO: THERE IS A LOGICAL FLAW IN THE ARGUMENT

Even if you accept their premise that being homosexual is wrong, you have to view it in the context of what we know and understand. You have to view it in the context of what it actually means.

It is established fact, not belief - fact - that gay people do not choose to be gay. This is not a choice. We also know that homosexuality exists in other species outside of humans. It is prevalent in nature.

If you are a Christian then you believe that God created the universe. You believe that God created you. You believe that God created the animals.

If God created those things, and he believed that homosexuality was wrong, why would he create them gay in the first place?

To hold the belief that homosexuality is wrong, you must believe that God created you as a homosexual simply to punish you for being a homosexual.

If you hold this view then it is an attack against the very benevolence of God himself. Holding this view is a statement that says: God is not a benevolent deity. He created you simply to punish you.

If God is not a benevolent deity, then there are much larger problems than whether or not being a homosexual is a sin. We are all, to put it bluntly, fucked.

However, if you believe God to be a benevolent deity, then this is not possible. You could not be created simply to be punished.

This is the logical flaw of viewing homosexuality as a sin. It is not a choice. It is no different than saying someone who is left handed is evil by their very nature, and by the way, there was a time when people actually believed exactly that. It is no different than if you were to say someone born with blue eyes is sinful by their very nature. It is no different than if you were to say someone born with dark skin is evil by their very nature.

None of those things are choices. Therefore, in order to be innately sinful, God would have had to create them sinful by their very nature. He would have had to have created them simply to punish them, and if that is the case then God could not be a benevolent deity.
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POINT THREE: ALWAYS QUESTION THE SOURCE

The whole argument starts with the premise, "Is there something wrong with me? Are my feelings sinful?"

Before you questioned yourself, you should have questioned the individuals who told you that you were sinful or evil. As I've pointed out, their views are neither rooted in scripture nor logic.

They could not be rooted in scripture, because the Bible is silent on homosexuality. It does not view it as we understand it today. We would not, for example, view someone who suffers from a mental disorder such as schizophrenia as being possessed by a demon.

They could not be rooted in logic, because if their logic is correct, then God is not a benevolent deity.

So what exactly is this belief rooted in if not scripture or logic? How did it come to be? The simple answer is that it is rooted in bigotry.

People who hold this view, rather than approaching the Bible with an open mind, have approached it with preexisting beliefs. They then turned to the scripture to justify those beliefs.

In order to do that they've had to wrench a handful of sentences out of their proper context. And let me be very clear here, these are a handful of sentences - these are passing mentions. As I am sure you know, it wasn't even something Jesus thought important enough to mention, though if you listen to many modern Christians you'd think being anti-gay was the very foundation upon which Christendom was built.

They believe that they can use religion as a shield. It allows them to justify their preexisting beliefs. If they didn't hide behind religion, they'd hide behind something else, perhaps cultural traditions or pseudo-science. The worst of them know that they hate gay people, and believe that by using religion as a shield it protects them from the consequences of holding those views. Hiding behind religion they can say, "I'm just following the word of God!" Hiding behind cultural traditions they could say, "I'm just defending our cultural heritage!" Hiding behind pseudo-science they could say, "I didn't invent the science!"

In the end, regardless of the shield they pick up, the root is always the same. It is bigotry. The word bigotry might be a loaded word in some peoples minds, but it does not always have to be overt. It can be subtle. It doesn't even mean the person made a conscious choice to be a bigot, you can be raised a bigot and hold those views as a result of your culture. Bigotry and ignorance often go hand-in-hand.

It is also not to paint people with some broad brush. People can change their views, and the truth of the matter is many people who hold this view, when forced to confront it (for example when a parent learns their child is gay), realizes how wrong it is and changes it. When their views are challenged, they must question them, and when bigoted views are revealed to be what they truly are it becomes difficult to defend or accept them.

These accusations may sound hollow to your ears. That is fine. You do not have to believe that it is rooted in bigotry. Call it ignorance. Call it whatever makes you feel comfortable, but in the end it does not change the fact that their very actions defy the will of God.

As I said, they take a handful of sentences which they wrench out of context to condemn you. If they can take a handful of sentences to condemn you, then they might be well advised to first examine themselves.

Matthew 7:1-5
Judging Others
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Jesus makes clear here in Matthew 7:1-5 that no Christian is to judge someone else unworthy, because they themselves are not without sin. And if any Christian does judge someone else, then the consequence of that is that they will be judged in return by the very same measure that they used to judge the other person.

Therefore, if they judge you as unworthy, sinful, and evil they will be judged accordingly.

Matthew 7:7-12
Ask, Seek, Knock
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

"Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is the very foundation upon which Christianity is built. It is the foundation stone of the New Covenant. Here, Jesus clears away the old laws by summing them up as follows: "do to others what you would have them do to you."

Jesus did not say, "Ask for salvation, but first you must be completely straight before it is given to you." No, he said "Ask and it will be given to you." There is no precondition.

He wipes away all the preconditions to finding God and salvation. All you have to do is ask. And the key here is that there are no preconditions. So, if someone were to say to you that you cannot be both Christian and gay, then they are creating a precondition that does not exist.

Matthew 7:13-14
The Narrow and Wide Gates
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Here Jesus warns the faithful against taking the easy road, the road that EVERYONE else is currently walking on. Those who truly find God are those who swim against the tide, not with it. This is why Jesus spends most of his time with outcasts, precisely because they are not following the same path as everyone else. By virtue of being outcasts - they can't, that gate is closed to them and they must follow the narrow path, and he provides them with that path.

Matthew 7:15-20
True and False Prophets
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Here Jesus is making it ABSOLUTELY clear how to measure anything that anyone has ever said that claims to be from the desires of God. Thus, the simple question: "Does it bear good fruit or bad fruit?"

When someone says that homosexuality is sinful, you don't even have to debate them on the merits. Simply ask that question. Does that teaching bear good fruit or bad?

Well let's examine it. We know that teaching that homosexuality is wrong harms gay people; it causes anxiety, social isolation, fear, depression, and in some cases leads to both attempted and successful suicide. The act itself, when consensual, doesn't harm the individuals involved. Allowing the act without condemnation does not directly impact anyone outside the individuals in the relationship, a relationship which would provide them with fulfillment and happiness. So, based upon this measure given by Jesus, I'd say condemning gay people produces some pretty rotten fruit. I see absolutely no good coming from it at all, only bad things, so it's not even a gray area.

That's it. You don't even need to go any further than that. This alone answers your question, because it is the measure upon which all teachings are judged. However, let's just keep going for the sake of it.

Matthew 7:21-23
True and False Disciples
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Here Jesus makes clear that just because someone claims to be a faithful person, a servant of God, that does not magically make them a good person. Even if they seem to follow the letter of the law, they are missing the very spirit of it.

Think of all the so-called Christians who condemn you for being gay, who endlessly display their faith. How many of the very people who spit upon you, who condemn you for being gay, stand tall and display their own so-called piety publicly? How many LOVE to tell you how pious they are, how righteous they are, and just how great Christians they are - compared to you.

Well, Jesus had already spoke about those folks back in Chapter 6 of the Gospel of Matthew.

Matthew 6:1-4
Giving to the Needy
"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Matthew 6:5-8
Prayer
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

So, what is it with all this hiding your faith? This is one of my favorite parts of the Gospels. It seems that this has been skipped by so many Christians, and it is easy to understand why once you understand the reason behind it.

You see, when they make public displays of righteousness and piety in front of others, they are - more often than not - actually worshiping the people they're praying before - not to God. Why? How can this be? Because their acts of righteousness are not genuine, it's to be recognized by OTHER people for THEIR piety, THEIR righteousness. In so doing, they are not serving God, they are serving themselves.

And as Jesus said, they have already received their reward in full, and will have no reward from their Father in heaven.

Pretty much the entirety of Chapter 6 of the Gospel of Matthew is dedicated to this theme.

Stop and think about this for a moment.

Here are people telling you that you are evil and sinful, and to do this they hunt down obscure remote passages of the Bible which they then wrench out of context to promote an already preexisting belief. However, these same people ALWAYS - let me repeat myself here - ALWAYS neglect an entire chapter out of one of the Gospels that is directed at them.

What does it say about them? What does it say about someone when they're so eager to condemn and judge you, when they cannot even be bothered to follow their own Messiah's unambiguous instructions? What does it say about them?

These people are not Christians. They are bullies. When they condemn you, they are not condemning you, but rather they are condemning themselves. Jesus said exactly this in Matthew 7:1-5 when he talked about Judging Others.

When they condemn you what they are actually doing is displaying their piety. They want to tell you how righteous they are, how much "better" of a Christian they are than you, and they do this like all bullies, because on the inside they feel inadequate. They can only feel strong and powerful by pulling you down. They want YOU to feel small so that THEY feel big.

You may be wondering what Jesus means when he says phrases like "do not be like the hypocrites" - you might be asking - "Who are these hypocrites he's talking about?"

He's talking about the religious people of his day. Pretty much the ENTIRETY of the Gospel is dedicated to attacking the faithful. Jesus wasn't bothering the pagans or the Romans. He set his sites squarely on his fellow faithful. And he spent the bulk of his time condemning them both directly and indirectly. Directly, by calling them hypocrites, and indirectly by instructing them how to be proper faithful.

And he wasn't going after just anybody, he was attacking the very leadership itself. He's calling them hypocrites, and telling you to not be like them.

Take a look at Chapter 23 of the Gospel of Matthew. Here is the entire Chapter in full.

Matthew 23:1-11
A Warning Against Hypocrisy
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

"Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called 'Rabbi' by others.

"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Matthew 23:13-39
Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.' You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.' You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

That is the ENTIRETY of Chapter 23, the Gospel of Matthew. The entirety of the Chapter is spent condemning the faithful, in particular the leaders of the faithful, of his day. He could not have been more clear on his feelings toward them - his utter contempt for them - had he spit in their faces.

Is it any wonder then, that these are the very same people who had him crucified in the end? That's your answer.

And now I ask you, what do you think Jesus would say to so many of his faithful followers if he were here today? Would he not say the very same words? Do they not commit the very same sins?

So, I'll end this final point where I started. You have people who claim to be Christians who condemn you. You question yourself, and wonder if you are sinful, perhaps evil by nature. These people make you feel like dirt and trash. They make you feel unworthy and tell you that you cannot be a Christian.

They base all of their claims on a handful of sentences that they had to wrench out of context in the first place.

Take a good long look at what I've written. Everything in italics is directly from the very book they claim to hold dear to their heart. Their Savior said nothing about you, not even in passing reference, but he had a hell of a lot to say about them.

I think Jesus said it best himself: "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

If you ask me, I think they have more than just a single plank in their eye. It's more like they've got an entire lumberyard on their face.

There is a reason so many so-called Christians avoid the Gospels themselves, because if they were to engage them directly they'd find that THEY are the ones being condemned. Again and again. To paraphrase Jesus from Matthew 7:13-14, the gate is narrow and only a few shall find it. There was a reason he went to the outcast, the very people the faithful had condemned. There was a reason the faithful are the ones who murdered him.

Since you brought it up, I also want to briefly (haha... me briefly do anything) touch upon the New Testament mentions of "homosexuality." I've noticed many Christians turning to the New Testament to justify their stance, because all the Old Testament stuff is so easy to debunk.

Romans 1 is the best example, in my opinion, that justifies everything I write about in Point One: THE BIBLE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY.

Romans 1:21-32
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Now, generally speaking when homosexuality is condemned using Romans 1 they only quote 26-27, though they might quote a bit more such as 24-27.

However, if you read the passage in its entirety - not just fragments of it - it becomes clear what Paul is saying and what Paul believes. A group of former Christians turned away from the Church. Do not forget all of Romans are Paul's letters to the Church in Rome. The individuals he is writing about had abandoned God and Christianity, and had begun to engage in idolatry (the worship of idols) and pagan beliefs.

Paul is saying - directly - that because of this God cursed them, that he gave them over to "shameful lusts." He describes them engaging in same-sex sexual behavior, but then goes on to say that God also cursed them with mental depravity, and all sorts of other things such as greed, slander, deceit, etc.

If you read my Point One in the spoiler box above, you'll see that I point out how Paul views same-sex relations. He views it - and this was a common view among the people of his day - as an over abundance of sexual lust. You are so lustful that you no longer desire just someone of the opposite sex, you now want to have sex with people of the same sex as well. For people who have a view that is very much anti-sex in general (Paul would love for EVERYONE to be celibate and basically live like a monk, nun, or Catholic Priest), even the thought of someone having sex that wasn't for procreative purposes was wrong.

Basically, this is how the Catholic Church ends up with their stance on sex. No birth control. No sex for the sake of pleasure. No masturbation. The only time you should engage in sex is to procreate and that's it. End of story.

That's pretty much the Bible's stance on sex, and it's entirely directed at heterosexuals. This means if you're straight and for some reason you can't breed - for example, you're sterile - then you can't have sex. You have to be celibate. At least if you want to follow the letter of the law.

Obviously, straight people ignore this all the time, as evidenced by the fact that 98% of Catholics have used some form of birth control.

The Bible's stance on sex has nothing to do with homosexuality, because the people who wrote the Bible had no understanding of it. Period. Our understanding of human sexuality is VERY recent. All this newfangled science stuff, where we research, and try to figure things out rather than simply accepting them on faith... historically speaking this is new. We're living in a literal Renaissance of understanding and knowledge that never existed before in prior human history, and it is very easy to take that fact for granted.

To understand the Bible's stance on sexuality, you have to take any understanding of homosexuality out of the equation because in the minds of the people who wrote the Bible it didn't exist. Instead, you need to focus on what they primarily focused on which was sex between men and women.

The reason the Bible takes such an anti-sex stance is primarily due to the cultural view of women. It primarily boiled down to the view that women were impure by nature, corrupters of the flesh, seducers of men, etc. The Bible has a very misogynistic view of women, and so did Jewish culture at the time. You can basically picture it roughly the equivalent of the modern day Taliban. This is the reason there are so many required purification rituals for women and the interactions men have with them in Leviticus.

Thus, if a man is having pleasure with a woman it is bad. It makes it easy for her to seduce and control him. If he's having sex with another man, it's also bad because one of the men is acting - in their minds at least - like a woman. The Greeks had a similar hang-up when it came to anal sex, even though they believed male-male love was superior to female-male love. They had an equally strong misogynistic view of women, they simply went in the opposite direction with that view, and encouraged love between men. So long as you weren't the man on the receiving end of anal sex it was perfectly okay, because to be on the receiving end was to be treated like a woman.

There is a reason that pretty much every anti-gay Bible passage focuses on same sex sexuality between men and not women. In fact it is very explicit in the fact that it is focused on men, the passage in Romans 1 is the only place in the ENTIRE Bible that lesbian sexual relations are ever even alluded too.

You are right, Fiddledeedee. People do frequently approach the Bible with already existing views and then proceed to read into the text what they already believe. However, as clearly evidenced by what they try and do with Romans 1 - that side isn't us. It's them.

The Bible says a great many things that most of these people ignore. For example, it's stance on divorce is pretty straight forward. It's pretty much forbidden, so once you are married; that's it, it's forever. In fact, if a woman is a virgin and is raped she is required to marry her rapist.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Marriage Violations
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

This pretty much sums up the Bible's view of women and marriage. :eusa_doh:

It's one of the reasons I laugh when someone starts talking about Bible-based marriages, because this is what I always picture in my head. You see, there are a lot of cafeteria Christians out there. They are more than willing to tell you what YOU are doing wrong, and how YOU should follow the Bible. However, in the same breath they willfully ignore things like this because it is inconvenient and they know it is wrong. Yet, even as they ignore things such as the above, they are not willing to extend the same to things like the anti-gay passage in Leviticus directed toward gay men. This is how you know someone is a hypocrite.

 

I'm Roman Catholic and I questioned it, but I'm sticking with it. I was baptized and went to Catholic school so I think I know where you're coming from.

Everyone views the Bible a different way. I don't really take it seriously but other people read it everyday, and that's perfectly fine with me. But the Bible says very little about homosexuality. I think the whole point of being a Christian is being a good person. Do good things, don't judge, love everyone and everything like that. Jesus didn't judge so hey, why should we?

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that God loves everyone, right? And I mean everyone so why wouldn't gays be included? Jesus surrounded himself with outcasts, prostitutes, etc.

I'm sorry if this doesn't make any sense. At all.

 

I don't know. Personally I don't understand how its hard to choose between love and happiness vs religious repression. Christians say so and so is wrong. I ask why? They say because its in the Bible. I ask why is it in the Bible? They say because god put it there. I ask why would god discourage a practice that only brings more love and happiness into the world? They say "We don't know, but we have faith". And at this point I just shake my head.

 

I know I've posted this several times already in similar thread, but honestly, I never found better answers than Ted's.
[YOUTUBE]See the light [emmet/ted/michael] - YouTube[/YOUTUBE]

I doubt a loving God would be cruel to the point of creating people capable of love and then forbid them to live fully this love for the reason they are from the same sex.

 

Where that argument falls apart is the assumption that any human is created in perfection. As in, "I'm going to create some people as heterosexuals- imperfect heterosexuals who are allowed to love, have relationships and marry but they're not sinners. And I'm going to create some people as homosexuals- imperfect homosexuals who are never allowed to love, have relationships or marry because they're sinners."

The reason it doesn't make sense is the same reasons that a lot of these arguments don't make sense- they begin with the conclusion that gay people are sinful and wrong and then work backwards to find scripture to support the conclusion.

Churches have been very bad about quoting scripture (particularly Romans) out of context.

Oddly, no one ever quotes things like Matthew 19 these days:

So, basically- divorce is wrong (since it's adultery), you should give away your possessions to the poor and if you're really serious, have your testicles removed.

If you read a bit about what was going on at this time, the apostles were in various areas of the middle east converting people to Christianity. At this time, Christianity was a sect of Judaism. And one of the big controversies for converts was whether or not they had to get circumcised. Not a lot of the converts were enthusiastic about giving up their foreskins to convert to Christianity.

Many of the people of the middle east didn't worship a single God. And sexuality was a big part of many of the polytheist and pagan religions of the time.

The early Christians were trying to distinguish themselves from the pagan beliefs of the time. There was a contingent of the early church that believed that no one should be indulging in any sexual activity (heterosexual or homosexual). And just as many converts weren't enthusiastic about losing their foreskins, they weren't particularly enthusiastic about living a life of total celibacy.

So, there were a lot of compromises made. No circumcision. Sex was okay in a heterosexual marriage (because a growing church needed children to keep the church going). And since homosexuals didn't produce children, they didn't benefit much from the compromises that were made.

 

As much as I am tempted to be complete battle axe here, I won't.

First of all, I think that the two gay folks they had come in and talk about how celibacy is the way to go is fundamentally ethically wrong. The idea that same-gender attraction is not wrong, but enjoying your sexuality together is "not what God intended" is just a morally wrong thing to tell people. The most charitable reading that I can possibly give the Bible is that the whole attitude on sex is that it's important and not to be taken lightly, and should proceed only in committed relationships. I don't think this is completely true (sex should proceed when two or more consenting and competent individuals agree throughout), but I think the insights are important. Now, most of what happens is that when people read the Bible, they read it like a living constitution; it's a set of rules to be followed, but we were wrong about its truth and we're getting to a better and better understanding of it.

I am told that Leviticus gave a law which has become obsolete (the reasons for that are unclear to me, but whatever).

I want you to have faith if that makes you feel ethically centered, but I'll be blunt; you're not going to get any less queer, so you need to figure out a way that your faith is going to work for you. The point of faith is to be a good person, not to suffer and feel like you were dealt a bad hand.

The Bible has been interpreted by sexist, racist, heterosexist and cissexist people, but that doesn't mean that you can't find room for equality and affirmation of same-gender love. Now I'm not saying the Bible is whatever you make it; I think there's definitely a correct way and an incorrect way to look at things. But I mean, you'll have to soul-search if being bisexual and having Christian faith is going to work for you.

 

I grew up in a church that was nowhere near accepting of it. And there were quite a number of us in church that experimented with it and such. Here's my story.
I became very legalistic around the age of 14. I hated the world, and all the sin that was in it. Me being legalistic means I didn't watch tv, I didn't listen to music that wasn't Christian, and I sure didn't have a relationship with God. I hated myself every time I committed a sinful act or even when i thought sinfully. It was a matter of Do's and Dont's for the next oh... 8+ years of my life.
I am 25 now and have recently been led out of the legalism issue. April 2011

---------- Post added 18th Aug 2012 at 09:33 PM ----------

oops... let me continue

---------- Post added 18th Aug 2012 at 09:40 PM ----------

April 2011, just over a year ago I sat down with God and had a little talk with Him. That month marked that I had struggled against homosexuality for three years. For those past three years, I fought against my attractions to the same sex and denied it like many other sins I had encountered and hated myself for. That special day in April 2011, I sat down with my guitar on the grassy hill and told God I'm done struggling with it, that I wasnt gonna hate myself anymore for this thing i couldn't help. I cannot tell you how much peace entered into my soul that moment when i told God that. It was clear to me that God doesn't want me hating myself over something like this. I realized how it was more of a sin to hate myself and let the issue keep me from God than it was for my attraction to the same sex push me away from God. Sin will definitely keep you from God and His love. This and hardcore studying of His Word with prayer led me to believe that sexuality doesn't matter to God. He wants you in His arms regardless and, for me, it was a change in hating myself (as opposed to loving myself).
Love covers a multitude of sins. - St. Peter (i think)

 

I am struggling with the same issue at the moment.

 

Oh geez, so many interesting comments.

While I wouldn't tell you what you told us not to say directly, I would suggest looking for resources, or even backing out temporarily from "the kind of Christianity where people tell you how to interpret certain things", so that you can look at matters without people's perspective, where you can find your perspective.

If it helps you, go read into what ideology the church camp supports, and even what alliances/ organizations the church have.... because these might give you an idea if they are biased for certain things...

I would also like to thank whoever pointed out on the split from Catholicism of Protestants.. it's like I have to hunt around the forum for church history lol

 

okay, i will talk like you were a straight 15 year old...you are full of hormones kid! you don't MUST have sex with a girl to be a man, even if you really feel an urge to , cuz you are not an animal, and there are very real consequences for your actions. You don't want to get her pregnant, or get STDs, and even a condom used right is NOT 100% effective on all counts. I can give you statistics if you like. But also, when you are a bit older, you will be more wise and likely to choose a mate who you can trust, who won't dump you or give you disease cuz they won't ever cheat on you. what kinda man you grow up to be is directly linked to the kinda boy you are...and yeah, you are a boy. The mind is not even fully mature until 25!

Now as a Queer kid...same as above, no pregnancy worry, insert boy for girl, and everything else is same. respect your body as a temple of God by not doing anything you will forever regret or using drugs or committing suicide...care for that body you only get one, and hardware store don't sell new parts. also, respect your partner, never sleep around with somebody drunk...it happens...and they can legally call it rape even if they said yes.

Oh, I am a transgender Baptist. Can't wait to meet ya in heaven!

 

I have never had a lecture about intersexed people, born that way obviously, God made them both gendered to one degree or another, and today we know it was mama's fault...she just had to toss in a few extra X's!

My cousin was and they made her a girl at birth, i don't know if they told her ever. but she has had lots of bf and kids. seemed to work out. what of those it does not cuz they feel male, i mean they do have a Y, ya know.

I asked a "friend", who just offended me too much, who insisted calling me woman to my face and to others at school, what about them...and she said she thinks it is fine if they decide what gender they want to be (and so i goes which way their straight will be), but not me. I am transgender, but what if I find out one day I was intersexed to? suddenly its all good???

I think because we don't know God's full mind, legalistic peeps fear what confuses their personal beliefs and shy away from it. too bad, cuz it is making peeps feel unwanted in church, and that is a sin...we are to draw all to God, not ostracize for not fitting in.

---------- Post added 2nd Dec 2012 at 06:37 PM ----------

Gosh! wish we were FB friends, cuz I'm not out, but i got a couple gay guy buddies who can't go to church and drifted into alternative faith mixtures...and one I know feels guilty but just, lost. Too many hate filled liars and too many who just don't know what LGBT go through...if only everybody knew!

---------- Post added 2nd Dec 2012 at 06:41 PM ----------

Santa...you changed. You a woman now? :eek:

 

The people at Soulforce helped me reconcile my Christian beliefs with my sexuality, FWIW.

 

As an atheist, it saddens me greatly to read these lines. What these two Christians essentially do is denying themselves their humanity and encourage others to do the same. At the same time they instill the idea that there is something wrong with you, threatening your relationship with god. They can preach all day long how great and wonderful it is to be gay, but by all means, don’t act on it, as it is fundamentally wrong and sinful (not what god intended). So in the end it still boils down to being wrong. Such progressive thinking!

The only thing this attitude does is to shame us, to dehumanize us, to deny us love, and to nourish homophobia. I can only say, that I am disgusted by this.

Isn't your god supposed to be endless and unconditionally loving and accepting? Can you imaging to be such a being in the face of the suffering that exists on this planet? What would you do? Would you as such a being create gay people and then deny them their humanity, instrumentalizing fear and shame in order to force them into living a lie like the 35 year old Christian you have mentioned? Is this what your god enjoys, to hurt and humiliate people?

Or is the beauty of your god revealed when you strip away the fear of death and damnation, the hate and all our human ideas of right and wrong? Does your god nourish the wish for you and all other creatures on this planet to be happy, loving, compassionate, free from suffering, and living a fulfilled life? But then, what if that is wrong and god does not want that? Is it then a god worth worshipping?

Rather than letting others shame you into a life you are not created for, be a beacon for you god’s love and compassion. Don’t overthink it, it can be so simple. Just be who you are, love who you love, and be kind, respectful and responsible to yourself and others.