Too far?

My head hurts reading the exchange between you two, and now i am reading on the word file...
because some of those ideas I have heard of before in sermons...

btw, what denomination is your friend?

also, you're 18, and how old is your friend? is your region or his region kind of conservative and sheltered ish?

 

I'm a gay Christian. My church is totally accepting of gays. Hell, my pastor has been gay married for 22 years. Being a practicing christian and a sexually active homosexual are not mutually exclusive.

This is an excellent reply to homophobic Christians.

"In her radio show, Dr. Laura Schlesinger (a popular conservative radio talk show host in the USA) said that homosexuality is an abomination according to the Bible Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, and was attributed to a James M. Kauffman, Ed. D.
_______________________

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination… end of
debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual unseemliness – Lev. 15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev. 1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev. 24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

James M. Kauffman, Ed. D.
Professor Emeritus Dept. of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education
University of Virginia"



I'd love to hear your friends response to that letter.

 

^ Ha, I love the letter too..

After reading you and your friend's exchange, I have come to a conclusion that my mind has a lot of "wtf" going on. Yes, I have heard of those arguments before, but I am still in process of settling them out.

If there's anything, it seems like your friend just listens to what the pastor says and doesn't have an idea and opinion of his own about religion and homosexuality. Which can be problematic because the pastor can say almost anything because "he thinks the bible says so"

 

This makes my head hurt. I'd distance myself from people like that.

 

Ditto. But then again, I'm an atheist. :eusa_doh:

 

To Alan Lewrie,

Just curious, why are you an atheist? I'm purely interested at a philosophic level, I have no interest in converting you or whatever.

 

Now correct me if I'm wrong, because I only skimmed this. However, I dont understand the problem here.

While it is improper, and even against the bible in reality, to use the "Love the sinner, hate the sin" as a means to discriminate against LGBT individuals. It is not illogical to believe that homosexual intercourse is considered a sin. According to the bible, all sexual activity without the intent of reproduction is lustful and thus sinful. This includes includes all hetereosexual intercourse unless they are literally seeking a child. Though it is no shock that people miss that because hetereos wouldnt find it very convienent, now would they?

While I dont agree that we should change ours lifes, even he says that he believes it as any other sin and no one will go to hell for it. So while I may not agree with the way it should be looked at, I dont see his beliefs as wrong or offensive.

 

I'm afraid that is a response I may have to write up outside of EC to come close to answering, so please accept my hastily written response below. I can elaborate considerably further than this, but don't really feel like writing an essay right now.

Aside from my Grandfather (an ex-sunday school teacher) and my Father (who never brought up god, ever, and who I believe was an atheist) my family was quite religious, mostly baptist. As a small child I had a hard time believing in the Christian god, the mysticism and miracles were a huge turn off, so I was a deist for quite some time, and explored all the main religions and some of the lesser ones before I realised that they were all the same with similar origin stories, and even Buddhism had tonnes of unscientific mysticism involved. I remained a deist and non-believer of MSR until I was about 10ish, then my Grandfather's agnosticism struck a chord with me, and I identified as that for another few years before I asked myself:

"If I'm agnostic because I see no proof of God's existence nor ever expect to find proof with a sufficient amount of scientific backing, what does it matter if god exists--there COULD be a Santa Claus, it's highly improbable, completely implausible, and his existing or not doesn't affect me one way or another in the slightest. The onus of proof is on the people making highly suspect and unbelievable claims, it is not on me to disprove god."

It was after that realisation I started identifying as an atheist, my conviction only grew as I got older.

On a side note, it really scares me when people say: "If there is no god or religion what will stop me from raping your sister, killing your parents and marrying a dog?" Do these people really not believe in innate morals and ethics without a big scary deity in the clouds just waiting to damn them to hell if they don't behave?

And if I'm wrong, and do end up in hell, at least I'll be in good company, all the interesting people are down there.

Sort of On-Topic: I have stopped going to restaurants with my maternal Grandmother, she insists on joining hands and praying, whether it's at home or in the middle of Outback. I don't knock her religion, or anyone else if they don't try and convert me, but I find public prayer inappropriate and awkward, especially as an atheist.

 

Thanks for the response. I totally see where you are coming from. You don't need to believe in a god to be a good person. Also, I refuse to believe that God would send someone to hell just for being in the "wrong religion" or atheist. I grew up in a horrid, homophobic Southern Baptist environment. Not a good place for a gay kid. I left the church in my late teens and have only recently been going back. My current church is nothing like what I grew up in, and has been really supportive of me.

I guess that I'm also agnostic, but I'm inclined to believe in some kind of a higher power. I love astronomy and science and stuff, but there comes a point where our current understanding of the universe is limited. I ponder the big questions, like what triggered the big bang and what created the rules for the universe (4 fundamental forces and stuff like that).

Also, Jesus actually didn't like public prayer either.

“Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you” (Matthew 6:5-6).

 

Of course! I enjoy intelligent conversation.

I can't imagine growing up in that sort of environment, especially as someone who isn't straight. I'm glad you've found a good accepting congregation!

I used to think this way as well, until around age 13 when I realised there was a recurring theme there. As humanity progresses and makes more and more discoveries the unknown becomes smaller and smaller, and considering the track record of things God did and things we eventually explained with Science I'm disinclined to give God any credence. Eventually as I read more on the subject, philosophy books in general, "The Denial of Death," and books by Hitchens and Dawkins, I discovered this had been noticed before and the concept had a name: The God of the Gaps.

"...how wrong it is to use God as a stop-gap for the incompleteness of our knowledge. If in fact the frontiers of knowledge are being pushed further and further back (and that is bound to be the case), then God is being pushed back with them, and is therefore continually in retreat. We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know."

"One example of such an argument, which uses God as an explanation of one of the current gaps in biological science, is as follows: "Because current science can't figure out exactly how life started, it must be God who caused life to start."

"God-of-the-gaps arguments have been discouraged by some theologians who assert that such arguments tend to relegate God to the leftovers of science: as scientific knowledge increases, the dominion of God decreases."

Yeah, I'm familiar with that passage, but I'm also used to most religious folks picking and choosing what parts of the Bible they want to follow. Gandhi once said: "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Something I always found rather poignant.

 

I always liked that Gandhi quote. It's very true.

You make good points regarding the "God of the gaps" argument. Science has definitely shed light on the darkness, and the realm of God has been shrinking. If we maintain our current rate of increased knowledge, belief in a god will be obsolete. However, until we know it all, people will always fill in the gaps with spirituality.

I'm just not sure that we will ever understand some of the big questions. It just seems strange to me that anything exists at all. Absolute nonexistence seems infinitely more likely. The laws of physics are quite ordered. For me at least, it just seems unlikely that such a complex universe would spontaneously appear for no apparent reason.

It should also be noted that filling in the gaps with God actually asks more questions that it answers. Who or what is this higher power? What are it's origins? So yeah, i agree, the God of the gaps argument has its flaws.

I also just wanted to say that my upbringing in an intolerant religions environment caused me much distress. My belief that God created me as a gay man and actually wants me to be happy brings me much comfort. Religion may be nothing but a placebo, but it is quite a powerful one if you know what I mean. I also enjoy the sense of community provided by an accepting church. It offers a much healthier environment than the gay bars and such. So yeah, I have my own motives for going to church. :icon_wink

 

Where in the Bible is it taught that sex without the intent of reproduction is sinful? Chapter and verse please.

Promiscuity, cheating, and predatory behavior are things that I could see being immoral/sinful. I personally don't see how a husband having sex with his wife while on birth control is sinful. The same for two members of the same gender having sex while in a relationship. Why would God be unhappy with these things?

 

I just noticed this so I am plenty late, but oh well... It does speak sex without the intent of reproduction as lustful, because the participants are doing it with "worldly desires". This is one of the reason why religious radicals have been so adamantly against birth control, condoms, etc. However, any logical individual would know that those sections are not in the bible because god would hate us for having it. We have to understand that the bible is not meant to be read in a literal sense. If it was meant to simply "tell" us what to do than it would be written as a list, not a binding of stories.

When you really analyze the bible, following it to a key is extremely unreasonable. There is simply too much to keep up with. But it shouldnt be taken literally. Is sex with reproductive intent lustful? Technically, yes. Is it anything that god is really going to frown upon, most likely not.

Many things in the bible are similar to the times when your parents used to tell you not to eat all of the candy, then leave the room. They know you are going to eat it, but as a parent, its the right thing to say. I hope that makes sense.

 

JadedandFrayed,

Thank you so much for sharing that letter. I'd never seen it before. I'm going to save it on my computer for some interesting "straight from the Book" references to other "sins" that are as ridiculous as calling homosexuality a sin. You know, for the occasional religious debate I get sucked into. Thanks!

 

You're welcome Adelaida. That letter is very useful for those type of debates.

And Gen, I get most of what you are saying. I don't take the Bible literally either. But when you say "Is sex with reproductive intent lustful? Technically, yes.", you lose me. You make it sound like all sex is lustful. Can it ever just be an act of love?

 

I would say yes, than no at the same time.

Lust is actually only to have a strong sexual desire. Do we pretty much have 'strong sexual desires' of our loves? I sure do. Its like the idea of Thou Shall Not Covet Thy Neighbors Wife(Wife has been believed to mean items/things in general). But if we dont wish to have the things we see, what will drive us to reach for better things in our lifes?

The bible has some very good morals, but the problem is, especially considering the different translations and eras its written in, things are pretty black and white. In reality things are a lot more complicated. You want to succed in your life and be wealthy? Well, technically thats greed...

Although these terms get a bad rap, we all need them to some extent in order to have any want or desire for anything.

 

Thanks for further clarifying your position.

After further study, I have found that the religious and dictionary definitions of things like greed and lust to be somewhat different. I can see where you are coming from now.