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Tomboy/butch lesbian

Discussion in 'Coming Out Advice' started by Ruby Dragon, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. Ruby Dragon

    Ruby Dragon Well-Known Member

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    How will people tell the difference between a tomboy and a butch lesbian, when the "dress code" is almost identical? I don't want to give off the wrong impression to anyone. I'm not totally against wearing women's clothes (tops) but I'm most comfortable in denim shorts and a golf shirt or tshirt.

    I often browse through the men's section in stores and find a lot of things I love, but due to pressure from my parents to "dress more feminine" I'm not allowed to buy it (not even with my OWN money!)... There is specific shoes (sneakers) that I really want but when my mom heard it, she freaked out and said I'm NOT going to buy those. I was so upset with her. Part of me wanting to buy men's shoes is that I wear a size 10, and it's terribly hard to find any women's shoe in that size, and if I do, I totally hate it, or it has heels, which I refuse to wear. Or it's way overpriced. Pass...

    To get back to the topic, how can I dress myself differently so that I'm not mistaken for a butch lesbian instead of "just a tomboy?" Or in the very least, a woman who likes to wear men's clothes.

    Another question I have is: Is it true that most tomboys eventually turn out to really be gay? I can't see myself ever being gay, but I'm definitely not a girly-girl. I'm comfortable with who I am at present, though I'd love to wear more items of men's clothes/shoes :confused:
     
  2. TheUglyBarnacle

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    Unless you wear something that screams Straight Ally or something similar, I really can't see how people would be able to tell. This seems like the inverse of the problem femme lesbians have.

    I know what you mean by being pressured to dress in a more feminine way. If you find a way around it, notify me. XD
     
  3. pinklov3ly

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    Indeed! TheUglyBarnacle is right on the money!

    Most people assume I'm straight because I'm a feminine lesbian. So, I'm usually the one to approach women. I also like, to dress down sometimes; I love wearing men shoes. I actually grew up with my brother, so I was like one of the boys checking out the girls.

    I really don't think there's anything you can do, but correct people if they assume you're a butch lesbian. Or wear a shirt that says, "Straight, but I won't say no to kissing a woman." :icon_wink

    A shirt like that may be impossible to find, that's why I'm starting my own line of lgbtq shirts etc.
     
    #3 pinklov3ly, Jan 7, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  4. Kay

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    Telling the difference between tomboy and butch is difficult.
    I look at your age and think it is time to put your foot down and say I will wear what I like and am comfortable with.
    All tomboy's do not turn out to be lesbians. You say you have no problem kissing women. I would say you are not straight. It is for you to find your place in the world.

    ---------- Post added 7th Jan 2013 at 08:06 AM ----------

    I would suggest a rainbow bracelet or something that will identify you as a lesbian. Sometimes it is difficult to pick out a lipstick lesbian unless the interested party has fabulous gaydar. Hugs and good luck.
     
  5. pinklov3ly

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    I'm wearing two bracelets and they go unnoticed, I even have a key chain with rainbow colors and that goes unnoticed as well. I'm very open/out, but I don't want to announce it to the world that I'm gay. Then again, it I wanna get noticed I'm going to have to step it up a notch :dry:
     
  6. Kay

    Kay Guest

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    Bracelets and a key chain and no one notices, that's a surprise. i always notice those little signs. You may, if you see someone you are interested in, make eye contact. Not a momentary glance but take a beat. If she is interested she might pick up on that. You are not obvious but you are making a statement. You could also go to known lesbian hangouts. You will get noticed. Hugs
     
  7. Sayu

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    Do you care what other people think of you? I mean, if you are a woman and you wear boyish clothes like all the time, I think there are always gonna be some people who will suspect that you are gay. Maybe your mum is just worried that you could be a lesbian, so maybe if you told her that you are not and that you simply feel more comfy wearing shirts, she would let you wear them :icon_wink

    As for the other part of the question, I honestly don't know. Not every tomboy turns out to be a lesbian, but I think there are certainly higher possibilities of finding a lesbian within a group of tomboys than finding a lesbian within a group of Barbie-loving girls :icon_bigg

    I, personally, am a tomboy and I have always been one :thumbsup: My parents are, fortunately, okay with it and they are used to me wearing boyish clothes :slight_smile:
     
  8. RainbowBright

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    I think there is a very big difference between a straight tomboy and somebody who is butch bi or lesbian. I can definitely tell the difference.

    Someone who is a simply a tomboy but not into the ladies does not have mannish mannerisms, walk, way of speaking, etc. Their dress-down clothes and lack of makeup only make them look more feminine in contrast, because they still have a feminine frame and mannerisms, sound, movement. Also, tomboys are simply practical, it's not that common for them to dress in actual men's clothes from head to toe. They'll wear women's pants that are not too tight, a t-shirt, maybe a men's flannel on top because it was on sale. They'll buy shoes that fit and are comfortable for what they plan to do, not focus on fashion - so they will tend to have a mix of female and male clothes depending on what was practical, not because they are intending to put together a "look," like a butch does.

    Someone who is bi or lesbian and of the "butch" persuasion will have a pretty relaxed walk, a short haircut (that is a major definer between "tomboy" and "butch" - tomboys will just pull their long hair up in a ponytail out of their way because they are being practical), and will be masculine to the point of confusing some people if they are male even. Straight tomboys don't go out of their way to look masculine, they simply don't go out of their way to look feminine and made up - there is a big difference.

    But I'm just talking about females here, if you are talking about someone who is straight trans FtM that is a whole different story.

    The thing that is actually harder to define is straight tomboy vs. "chapstick lesbian" - someone who is only mildly femme, and wears only chapstick not makeup, both with feminine hairstyle and similar dress code. But still, you can tell a lot from mannerisms. Straight tomboys also will date guys, so it becomes pretty evident that they are straight, or closeted. "Chapstick" lesbians will date girls. Regardless, someone with good gaydar will be able to tell the difference. But really, it's none of anyone's business but your own.

    ---------- Post added 11th Jan 2013 at 06:31 PM ----------

    They go unnoticed - I'm assuming you mean by straight people. It's very unlikely that gay people, especially ones who are interested in you, don't notice. We are used to looking for signs. Straight people don't get it because they have low gay IQ, but it doesn't matter, your sexuality does not affect them anyway. Unless you REALLY want them to know and wear an "I am GAY" t-shirt, if you hang more around lesbians they will get you better, especially if you don't limit yourself only to making friends with very butch girls, who tend not to have great gaydar because they themselves never experienced having an ambiguous appearance and having to notice the small signs. A lot of them just wait to be hit on by a femme, or keep it all to the lesbian clubs where it's pretty clear what their chances are. Other femme girls will pick up on that bracelet right away, believe me!
     
  9. Ruby Dragon

    Ruby Dragon Well-Known Member

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    See, that's the problem. I have a short haircut (there's a pic of myself on my profile)... I don't wear men's clothes exclusively, most of my pants/shorts are women's clothing. And I do wear the occasional feminine tops. But on days that I wear my golf shirts (masculine) and shorts, combined with my slip-on sandals the overall picture is more butch I guess. I'm simply dressed the way I feel comfortable. I'm not trying to give off any vibes. But I often get these strange looks from others. I find that I usually just grab whatever I feel like that day and wear it. I don't go out of my way to "look" a certain way. In fact, most of the time I don't really care much about how I look, as long as I'm comfortable...

    I'm also drawn to men's shoes (sneakers specifically). There's just something about them that gives off this look of complete comfort. But when I do buy men's sneakers/trainers, I tend to go for these types, rather than the typical "rugged" men's sneakers. - Even though I like those too :confused:

    Here is an example of sneakers I like, but am hesitant to buy. I also own two pairs of these... Love them!

    I wear sneakers mostly with long jeans, so it's not like they draw THAT much attention really. But I still just want to be comfortable and not judged incorrectly :icon_sad:

    (Sorry about all the links :lol: :icon_redf)
     
    #9 Ruby Dragon, Jan 22, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  10. curlycats

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    i really don't think things are as clear cut as your above post tries to make it seem, but that's just my opinion....

    to the OP, why are you so concerned about the impression people get of you...? it's not like you're leading anyone on as you aren't doing anything with the intention of someone thinking you're a lesbian. if someone does get that impression and acts on it without first ASKING you about it like they should, then that's their fault not yours.

    i mean, i can kind of understand how you feel. i suppose that i could come off to someone as being either tomboyish or a soft buch/chapstick lesbian, but i make no effort to come off as such. the one time someone actually came up to me and asked if i had a girlfriend i was actually flattered even though i identified as straight at the time. on the other hand, since i've been in Australia (i'm actually American) i've had numerous Africans start up conversations with me thinking that i was African.... until i opened my mouth and they realized i was American. the disappointment is always so evident on their face that i actually (without any real reason to!) feel a little bad about it, and i imagine that that's how you feel about being mistaken for being a lesbian...?

    i really try not to let such things get to me. if someone mistakes me for something i'm not, it's on them. i'm not going to try and change myself or my looks for someone else's benefit/ease of understanding. the only thing i can suggest is that you do the same, but i realize that disregarding such things is easier said than done for some people.
     
    #10 curlycats, Jan 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  11. Ianthe

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    VelvetBlade: Straight people do not have to work this hard at it. I'm not going to give you tips on how to pass for straight, because I don't think it's a good idea.

    This is completely wrong. There are very masculine women--female identified women, forgive the redundancy but it seems necessary--who are straight. I have a cousin like that. She had her head shaved and has tattoos all over, and I don't mean pretty, feminine flowers and stuff, they are distinctly masculine tattoos. She's also a total daredevil type, always doing totally crazy shit. Like skydiving, and basically anything to skyrocket her adrenalin. Even when we were kids, she was always climbing on something. She's been working as an EMT, and now she's studying to be a helicopter nurse. Lifeflight, or whatever. But she's straight, and I'm the gay one. Super girly me. And if there is one person on earth that I'm sure is doing exactly what she wants and living her own truth, it's her. She's never been very influenced by anyone. She got her GED at 16 and has been following her own path ever since. Not that her parents would mind if she was gay anyway, they are extremely liberal granola vegetarians. Free love hippie types, from way back.

    Just like there are very feminine lesbians--a fact of which you are clearly aware--there are very masculine straight women. It's totally wrong, always, to suppose you can deduce someone's sexuality from their gender expression with any certainty. Butch women may be more likely to be lesbians, but some of them aren't. (The more likely is because gender variance partly correlates with non-straight sexual orientations. But only partly. You do know what gender variance is, and that it is an inborn trait, right?)

    Also, did you actually use the term "mannish?" You know that's a pejorative way of saying a woman is masculine, right? I mean, I know you aren't butch, and aren't attracted to butches, but there is really no need to insult them. I have never heard "mannish" used by someone who thought it was a good quality. "Mannish" definitely has negative connotations. ("Manly" is the adjective people use when they approve of someone behaving or appearing like a man.) Why did you pick that word instead of one of the many others you could have used? I really found some things in your post kind of offensive.

    Plus, butches are butch no matter what they are doing with their hair. It's an inherent aspect of a person's character, not just a fashion statement. Wouldn't you still be feminine if your hair fell out? I know several butches with shoulder length or longer hair. And they wear men's clothes because that's how they feel comfortable, not because they are "putting together a look." Do you actually know many butches? Because you seem kind of prejudiced against them.

    Why you brought up transmen, I have no idea. They are not germane to the discussion. By "straight trans FtM" do you mean to imply that butch is some sort of lesser, adulterated or diluted form of FtM? Or do you mean FtM's who are straight (they would like women, in that case...).

    Tomboy and butch are two different words that both mean masculine female. Unlike "mannish," they have good connotations, at least depending on context. Beyond that, different people will have different definitions for them. In particular, the people who use them to self-identify will have different definitions for them, and it would be nice if we could let them define their identities for themselves.

    TL;DR Stop making inane assumptions about people based on their clothes, it's rude. Please don't insult butches, and "mannish" is a pejorative term.



    No, I wear rainbows all the time and have people--including other femmes--say shit to me like "So, you're one of the six straight people in the choir, right?" (Context being, we are all members of a lesbian choir and I am wearing rainbow jewelry.)


    If you want to be recognized, you have to do something that will make you obviously queer to everyone. The thing is, if straight people don't know something is a symbol, they will wear it accidentally. Then you don't know if they are actually queer or not, just from a bracelet or whatever. This is especially true for women. For men, they can just violate masculine norms, such as by wearing rainbows--straight guys won't do that, for the most part, because they would be punished socially (of course, masculine gay guys are sometimes uncomfortable with it). I realize you are trying to promote a combination of a couple things, but I think it's unlikely to gain traction--there are lots of gay symbols, but none of them are universal.

    Mostly, the best thing is to just be out. Speak openly from your perspective as a queer person. Then, people around you will figure out your orientation. For example, I'm pretty sure a lot of people in choir have learned that I'm a lesbian based on me telling them the empowering experience I had last term with one of our songs that uses the word "dyke," and how I was kind of uncomfortable with it at first, but now I love it. I'm pretty sure it made it clear that the word "dyke" can reasonably apply to me.

    Finally, there is more butch-phobia at the end of your post there. I've helpfully bolded some of the butch-phobic parts of your post that bothered me. What exactly is your problem with butches?
     
  12. RainbowBright

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    I think it's rude to try to pick a fight with someone who never meant any harm, and hasn't even posted on this thread for two weeks. I am getting tired of being picked on on this site when I post something intended to be friendly, by some person who feels a need to find a negative intent that wasn't there. It is possible for people to have different experiences and perspectives than you, and for my experiences to be every bit as valid as yours. I think many LGBTQ people could use a larger dose of tolerance in that respect, some feel a need to "correct" others in an aggressive manner, rather than simply disagreeing and providing a different perspective. Your need to make it personal and to assert that I don't know or like butch lesbians is incorrect and inappropriate. I have had many a massive crush on butch women, but I should not feel a need to justify myself on a "support" website.

    I feel attacked on this website as a whole more often than I feel supported, which is a shame because I am only trying to connect with others and share support, so I think I will step away for a while. It is amazing to me how strongly regulars on here want to crash down and squash the slightest bit of free thought that differs from their own, as if there is only one truth in life and we all must live by their own perspective. There is a way to share opposing views that is far more tactful and respectful than writing a page-long attack of someone who does not even know you, was not talking to you, and never meant any harm at all to anyone on the site. I don't see how that is fostering a supportive environment. But you're the moderator, so....
     
  13. OMGWTFBBQ

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    *shrug* go after a boy. l'm not entirely sure they wold be into the look, probably some bi men might be.

    l had a straight female friend who for whatever reason LOVED looking like a lesbian lol. Her mother thought she was :confused:

    Not butch, but like a stoner kind of femme but butch in attitude, baggy clothes- kind of raver/candy kid(l am so old)and she wore rainbows proudly(and knew what they mean, obv).

    At one point she even had what her boyfriend described as "lesbian hair"

    And totally was not, and had like 8 boyfriends in high school xD

    l can tack a few more straight girls like that, one had her shaved.

    ---------- Post added 24th Jan 2013 at 09:13 AM ----------

    :/ l don't want to reject your experience like you said above but l guess l don't the reasoninh here, either.

    lt's a style. There is nothing that is going to determine that a butch's body is masculine. lf it actually turns out the way sometimes, so be it. But...a butch is not like loaded with male hormones or necessarily affected some way in utero that would make her physically masculine lol.

    And l really have seen PLENTY of straight women who are more physically masculine than some gay women, if anything they often go for the femme look (IME).
     
    #13 OMGWTFBBQ, Jan 24, 2013
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  14. Foxfeather

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    I know these posts were made a long time ago, but the clothing issue is bothering me too. I'm not necessarily femme or butch. I'm an actual tomboy bi, but I have a really feminine body and I wear my male clothing in a feminine way (or vice versa--female clothing in a masculine way). So nobody can really tell if I'm wearing a bow tie/beanie/plaid to be cute or because I'm serious.
     
  15. Awesome

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    The only two people I have known well who I have ever considered real tomboys are my best friend and myself. My best friend turned out to be trans male and I turned out to be gay. However, that does not mean you cannot be a cisgendered straight tomboy. There are some straight men who are cross-dressers. Maybe you are the female equivalent of that. Don't feel like you have to fit into any predefined group. I think that you should just strive to be yourself (coming from a very odd person). With your parents, I honestly think that it will take some compromising as long as you are living under their roof.

    Edit: Aaaah! I just noticed the date of the original post. Oops.
     
    #15 Awesome, Mar 30, 2015
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