Hey guys. First post here so dont know if i'm doing this right. Heres my theory as to why gay men dont want to come out, after hanging around homophobes and "closet" men. Effiminancy Most gays shown onto the media and the public are effiminate or "girly" men. Most gay men dont want to be labelled and judged as being like this as most men are masculine and are afraid coming out as gay as for them it means being a "girl" and losing your masculinity. Its not about being within the stereotypes, its about the types of clothes gay men wear, the way they act with lip pouting and gossiping and all the other things women do. Promiscuisity Okay. Most gay sites, social networks are all about gay hooking up, gay sex and all sorts of porn related material. Most gays that I know of just want civilised monogamous relationships. Coming out as gay, many believe you have to be a "slut" to be gay and most men dont want to feel like that. Another thing I wanted to add to this sub category is that many people are saying most presumed "gay-men" just have their "gay fun" and then say "oh, i dont like being gay anymore, i want a girlfriend now". The "butt seks" and AIDS. Most gay feel they cant come out of the closet because many feel that they will be put into the AIDS and butt sex stereotype. Most gay men, adverts and social media etc perceive that ALL gay men commit this act. We have ads saying related to gay men saying "are you a top or bottom, we want your survey" and "are you a gay man? get yourself tested" and things like that which make it very difficult for the average gay man to come out. This is why we see many people say "oh im straight, dont care about aids" even some disturbing comments such as "go die of aids fag" and "that post was so gay it gave me aids" which makes anyone struggling to come out give them an excuse to just rather lie and marry a women to avoid all of it. The curious Okay so this isnt put on here to hurt the confused or curious, but most gay men get angry and upset about the fact people use homosexuality as a way to get laid. Most people feel that a curious person makes other genuine gay men feel like they "chose" to be gay. Others feel insulted and "dirty" when they hear or see these things. My point? I just wish we had proper role models which shows we are people with hearts and can comform to society without the negative stigmas. We can show religions we are just like you, rather than look like evil predators just after one thing. Someone who can turn those homophobic comments back and make them look wrong. Sure we can all just ignore them, not pay them attention, but remember, people speak and we cannt keep their mouths shut no matter how hard we try. I mean when I came out to my family, first thoughts were "oh my goodness I already have 4 girls, not another one" and "oh do you like it up the bum?" as well as "oh, so youre going to smother yourself in drugs?" Things like these hurt not only me, but others who are still in the closet. Which also why some men label themselves as bisexual or same sex attracted as they dont want to be apart of the gay stigma. I wish someone would shed some light and clear this up for me as I for one cant help a closeted man and stop the awful comments thrown from homophobes or heterosexists. One more gay and aids reference and im going to go crazy! :tantrum: Please help Thanks
I don't like what you are suggesting here. Are you saying that someone can't be a proper role model if they don't conform to arbitrary gender norms? That's bogus. Everyone is free to their own preferred gender expression. Saying that homosexuals should just conform to gender roles so society will like them more is sexist and homophobic. It leaves trans* individuals out to dry as well. Our image as a queer community should not be, "No look how much just like the straight/cis community we are! We idolize you and are exactly the same!" Our message should be, "We don't give a poop if we aren't like you. We are being ourselves and we are happy that way."
Most likely as many mix/match reasons as there are closeted gay men. All the ones you listed plus 1,000 more. It all boils down to fear and anxiety. Society in general (humanity) has a really bad track record for dealing with "different" things very well. "Different" triggers their fight/flight response. We all see it everyday. Stuck
OK, let's get started, shall we? A bunch of points to be made here. First and foremost, and let me back this bold so it's made as clear as possible. There's nothing wrong with effeminacy in men. Seriously. There isn't. Effeminate guys aren't "doing it wrong". For the most part, effeminate guys are "living by their programming". It's not like they come home from a day of being flaming, switch out of their fabulous clothes, put on a ripped T-shirt and sweat pants, and start belching. They're effeminate because that's just how they're wired. Do some of them ramp it up? Sure. Some of my straight friends ramp it up, as well. Unless you think all straight guys paint their faces in their favorite team colors and bellow at sporting events. And it's the same idea - taking something they enjoy, and enjoy the fuck out of it. That's how life is supposed to be, damnit. And yes, not all gay men are effeminate. I'm pretty masculine myself. But I don't try to shy away from the femmy guys, hoping nobody equates me with them. If anything, it's the opposite. Harvey Fierstein put it best, I think. "If you think the Pride Parade doesn't resemble you, your response shouldn't be to tell the people in the parade to tone it down, or to try to act more like you. Your response should be to get in that damn parade and add variety to it." Yes, there are more femmy gay guys out-of-the-closet than masculine ones. But that doesn't mean the femmy guys are the problem. What are the femmy guys supposed to do - stay in? Pretend they're straight? Everybody probably thinks they're gay anyway, so they say "well, fuck it" and come out. That leaves the more masculine guys behind. And again, our job shouldn't be to try to push them back into the closet - it should be to join them out in the open. The more masculine gay guys who are out, the more straight people will be able to see the variety and spectrum of homosexuals. Does the media tend to favor the girl-y ones? After a fashion. But it's the media. They're not there to educate the masses. They're there to entertain. (Well, they're there to make coin, but the idea still holds.) They need a gay guy for a show. Do they find a masculine guy to play a homosexual, and take time to explain that this guy is gay but acts straight? No, screw that - they have a stupid program to put on. Put on a more effeminate guy, and they don't even have to tell you he's gay. Back in the 80s, when they needed a "punk", they had a guy with a pink mohawk show up, even though 99% of punks don't wear pink mohawks. But it was shorthand - mohawk equals punk - so they could just have him walk on screen and not have to explain what sort of character he was. Again, several things going on. When I joined a cartoon-based online messageboard, guess what our point of commonality was. Yep - enjoying cartoons. So that's what a lot of our conversations were about. Now, what's the one thing I have in common with every other gay guy on the planet? Yep - we like getting freaky with other guys. That is, in fact, our own commonality. So naturally, that's going to be a major emphasis online. Why do so many sites revolve around hooking up? Because that's where the demand is. People like having sex. The average man seems to enjoy it somewhat more than the average woman, so it's perhaps not surprising that gay men tend to cut to the chase more often. I've joked that where straight couples often have to do a "getting to know you" routine, and women worry about "reputations", and guys wonder if perhaps they look like "they only want one thing"...gay guys have reduced the mating dance down to "you wanna?" And for those that want to, and that enjoy it, why the hell not? It IS a bit strange that most people seem to equate "being gay and male" to "anal". Perhaps that's because most people equate "being straight" to "vaginal sex", and so they figure we must just have one "default" setting like they do. But for gay men, as for everybody, sex is a buffet - you can sample, you can have a few things you do, you can try it all, you can stick with one thing. As far as AIDS goes, I'd say the education needs to continue. It's a bit bewildering to me that I run into gay men across a spectrum - some who are terrified of HIV (and usually only that) to the point of being scared of doing anything sexual at all, and some who are exceptionally dismissive of it, and say "Oh, I'm sure I'm clean, and I'm pretty sure this guy is, too, so condoms aren't necessary". (I actually worked with a guy who said he always used protection "unless the guy was really hot". I have absolutely no idea how his thought process worked there - maybe he thought his "heat" would burn off any STDs?) And both those people have the wrong idea. There are VERY simple things you can do to protect yourself, and if you just stick with them, you'll be fine. So obviously there's work to be done still. Some people play the "curious" card to get laid. Why? It works. I wish I understood why, but there are plenty of gay guys out there who only want to have sex with "straight" guys. Maybe they think that makes them "less gay", but whatever. Here's my advice. Stop looking for that role model. BE that role model. Stop waiting for somebody else to do it for you. I certainly never did. I didn't wait for somebody on TV to tell me (or my friends and family) that it was possible to be "masculine and gay". I didn't wait for somebody in the media to prove to me (or my friends and family) that somebody could be gay and non-promiscuous. I didn't wait for somebody in a movie to prove to me (or my friends and family) that I could be gay and HIV-free. I just came out. And was that person. And did I get questions? Sure. All sorts of ignorant ones. You know what I did? I answered them. "So does this mean you're, like, a girl?" "Only in the fact that I like naked guys." "So does this mean you have sex with a different guy every night?" "I probably could if that interested me, just like you could hook up with a different girl every night if it interested you. But it doesn't, so I don't." "Do you like it up the butt?" "Sometimes. I prefer other things, though." "Does this mean you've got AIDS?" "No, I don't have AIDS. And I take steps to make sure I never will get it, either." Acceptance of different sexualities has grown a lot over the past few decades. And it isn't because of a great TV show or something. The positive portrayals on TV didn't come about because somebody making the show was amazingly brave. It was because they were reflecting the attitude of the people around them. The change in attitudes over the past few decades were because of people like you and me. It's because we came out, and showed our little section of the world what different sexualities were really all about. I made a few people think "Well, if Lex is gay, I guess gays aren't really all bad." We're standing on the shoulders of giants. Others had to come out when to do so wasn't just "uncomfortable" or "awkward" but dangerous. The path has been made smoother in the last few decades because of their work. They made it easier for me to come out. And hopefully, my coming out will make it easier for someone else. Lex
I agree here in that i DONT like the assumptions made here (trick negatives). Lots of gay men aren't feminine (even though its totally okay if they are) for example "bears" And the implication that women act a certain way is bogus as well. As a women I find offense at the statement "the way they act with lip pouting and gossiping and all the other things women do."
Totally agree with Lexington. There are various stigmas with being gay, but it's up to us be the change we want to see.
I don't think anyone has the right to assume why someone doesn't want to come out. There are gay men who will never come out regardless of what anyone has to say. If they want to live in the closet then that's their life to live nor is it okay for us to psychoanalyze why they choose not to. I can say that because I've tried endlessly to get my friend, who's bisexual to come out. But she's not ready and that's fine...there's nothing more to it. Until you've walked in the shoes of every gay man then you cannot really narrow it down; unless you conduct a well controlled study. I had a class in college called Research Methods; in order to prove something you need facts/evidence. However, I know that this is just your opinion, we're all entitled to that, but it's easy to offend people. The whole gay subject is still touchy for a lot of people, esp those who are still in the closet. I've also read this book called "Being Homosexual, Gay Men and Their Development", it's by Richard A. Isay, M.D.
Yeah, I really enjoyed reading his response. I thought it was spot on too. It's nice to see such well-placed confidence.
Yes, many of the reasons that gay people don't want to come out have to do with heterosexism and homophobia, and the tendency people have to overgeneralize and think in stereotypes. It can be very hard to deal with. However, since you brought up the topic of prejudice, I'd like to point out some elements of you own thinking that you might want to examine for underlying misogyny and internalized homophobia, as we all must sometimes do, if we want to fight prejudice. It's normal to have these kinds of prejudices that we aren't aware of, and our efforts to eliminate prejudice must begin in our own hearts. While you have correctly noted certain stereotypes that many people have about gay men, you have not examined the underlying cultural attitudes that cast these stereotypes in such a strongly negative light. You are bothered that gay men are seen as "girly," but you have not examined the underlying idea that it is bad for them to be feminine. As a woman, and as a feminine person, I seriously doubt you are going to be able to explain that to me in a way I won't find offensive. When men denigrate each other by calling each other "girls" I think it is far more deeply insulting to women, as a class, than to the men. That's the misogyny I wanted you to look at. Consider statements by celebrities like George Clooney recently, that while they are not gay, they don't care if people think they are, because there is nothing wrong with being gay. If femininity isn't inherently a bad thing, why would it be so horrible for people to think of you as feminine? If it isn't bad to be a girl or a woman, why is it an insult to be called one? Women do not insult each other by calling each other boys or guys--this is because the underlying cultural narrative is that being male or masculine is superior to being female or feminine. That's why being called a girl is an insult, and being called a boy is not (for a woman--being called "boy" can be an insult for a man, but it is not related to gender). Under "Promiscuity," you used the word "slut," although you put it in quotation marks. It's not only the word itself, but what means that it problematic, so the quotation marks don't really fix anything. Let's examine the usage of this word. I have never seen it used for straight men, and only occasionally for lesbians. I have seen it used a lot for straight women, and almost as much for gay men. Actually, since I came out and into the LGBT community, I may have heard it more often for gay men. In this case, the underlying idea that we should object to is that having sex with men decreases one's status value as a person. (For straight men, there is a corresponding idea that having more sex with more women increases their status, which is also toxic. The idea is that by having sex with a woman, a man takes some of her status for himself, and she loses it permanently.) This brings us to anal sex, which you for some reason refer to as "butt seks." Straight people have anal sex all the time, and there is little or no stigma attached to it. There is no loss of status associated with a man having anal sex with his girlfriend--as long as he's the one doing the penetrating, and she's not pegging him with a strap-on. Then there is a loss of status: being in the woman's position makes you less. If the stigma against gay sex were about it being anal, straight anal sex would be equally stigmatized, and it's not. If you are having sex with men, it is presumed that at some point you are on the receiving end of the penis--not necessarily in anal sex, but in some regard, orally or manually. This puts you "in the woman's position," and therefore you lose status. However, receiving anal is usually seen as the biggest loss of status--presumably because this puts the person in the most similar position to "the woman's position" possible. So, a lot of the homophobic narratives against gay men are built, not only on the idea that gay men are feminine and take on female social and sexual roles, but that being feminine isn't as good as being masculine, which is an inherently misogynistic idea. In order to end homophobia, we should challenge the ideas that underlie it. **** Regarding "curious" men, in my experience "most people" regard them as closeted gay men. Some people go as far as considering them bisexual, which in many cases is probably accurate. Some of them go on to come out as gay, in the future when they have accepted themselves more. Other's don't. Their stance that it's all just a bit of casual fun is surely almost always a smoke screen--being gay has too many consequences for people to play around with it if it isn't really part of them. And finally, HIV. No, it isn't fair that it is associated so strongly with gay men. But gay men are at greater risk for HIV, and they need to know it. It's good to encourage everyone in condom use, but it is appropriate to give particular attention to gay men in regard to HIV education. But it should be understood that viruses do not make moral judgments, and do not respect the "ick" factor. HIV is transmitted most readily via anal sex--to be specific, it is most easily contracted by receiving anal sex (without a condom). But it is not because anal sex is disgusting or immoral. Viruses don't care about that. HIV is a virus, and viruses are no one's fault.
None of those apply to me. It's generally how society has made it difficult for me to come out. It's also the fact that we have to and that scares me, I have to make some revelation about my sexuality yet straight people can just get on with their lives. Butt sex and effeminaty has nothing to do with anybody or the reason I have to come out. As for HIV, um...I'm pretty sure heterosexual people are at high risk also. If anyone assumed differently, send them back to school. I have no worries regarding STI's, as I don't plan on getting one. It's not gay people that get them, it's (as offensive as this could sound) those that don't protect themselves and are fickle enough to believe it won't happen to them.
I can't remember where I read this but I think it kind of fits "Be the person you want to meet." I just thought I put it out there Also being gay (at least to me) means that you like the same gender just as straight person likes the opposite gender and you can be who you truly are because everyone is different and that's not bad.
One of my friends said "straight people come out of the closet every day of their lives". If they wear a wedding ring, if they've got a picture of their girlfriend on their desk, if they list their boyfriend on Facebook, if they talk about going to a strip club, if they say that particular actor is hot - they've come out as straight. And we can take precisely the same route to come out as gay. Lex
There are plenty of role models, just look around. It's human nature to criticize, because it makes the person that's doing the criticizing feel power over us meek gay people. Haha. Problem is that they don't really know that they are talking to a gay man most of the time because we don't "look the part" and don't speak up and defend......which we shouldn't have too do.
In my entire life I've never, most of the time, been a minority of any kind. Except for some of my beliefs... but like being gay, that's not something somebody "sees" when they look at you. Now that I know I'm gay, I suddenly realize that 9 out of 10 men around me are not. I sure don't need to be friends with all 9... at the same time, I don't want to be thrown under the bus because I'm gay. For me, not coming out, is all because of the fear of being rejected... When I ought to look at the flip side -- coming out is being accepted!
