This is an issue I need to face.

Community is what we all make of it, and while the LGBT community is commonly mixed together as one thing because of the shared issue of finding ourselves through a different view than the commonly accepted hereto sexuality, I don't believe that everyone who identifies themselves as LGBT has to like everyone else who also identifies with it. We are human and we can't like everyone.

I may be counter intuitive for saying this but in person it should be easier to find the person as how they are and let their sexuality by the way side when you are trying to make friends. Your friend proved that who you like in bed doesn't have to be the common ground for a good friendship.

 

I sympathize with pretty much everything you said. However, I don't think LGBT is meant to be a typical "community". We aren't expected to all know each other and stick together and hang out on the weekends. We do, however, face the same category of discrimination and are all in the same boat as far as not being hetero goes. We can support each other and look out for each other. It's much easier to confront the sexuality issues today as LGBT rather than individually as the gay men, the lesbians, and the bisexuals, and then the transgendered.

 

OP, my feelings exactly!! I live in the Northeastern U.S. and same issues here. I'm not out, but I do know a bit about gay culture up here from previous guys I met who later came out. The L & G really face a lot of issues, especially in more socially conservative/traditional areas of the country. Even though my family is open minded and not highly religious, there is still this indirect pressure to live the traditional normal life. I would be the first in my family to break the norm. The ones in my family who got divorced, while still loved and supported, seem to have broken the ideal image. They appear more dysfunctional than reality. They are perceived differently.

We have to pretend to be straight and know deep down that the straight life can never fulfill our sexual and emotional needs, mostly sexual. It's empty and mechanical. In our society, sex is put on this huge pedestal, especially among college students. Hetero is everywhere from TV to movies to the raunchy discussions between my friends. As a gay or lesbian, you really feel alone and isolated. Because we are aware of the fact we are different and lack hetero desires (where 90%+ of society has), we become envious and even disgusted by those who have both homo and hetero desires (bisexual). Biphobia is often a reaction by gays and lesbians due to our own feelings of isolation and alienation from the hetero world. When I meet other gay men, I feel relieved and free. When I meet bisexual men, I feel uncomfortable and a bit envious.

There was this one bi guy that wanted to date me (we're both closeted). I recently opened up to the idea of fulfilling my sexuality and dating guys. The problem with him was his bisexuality. I don't know why, but it made me uncomfortable. I thought in my head he is either using "bi" as a cover up to hide the fact he's gay or if he's really bi, I'm just a rebound or temporary fix until he finds the right girl. It's wrong to think that and I need to overcome those feelings... but having felt the alienation from the hetero world, I need a gay guy. No disrespect to bi's. It will take some time.

 

I am going to take some time to think before replying in depth to this thread... Breathe in... Breathe out...

 

Who says you have to get on with lesbians etc? You don't need to share any more of a connection with a lesbian than you do with your neighbour 3 doors down.

On top of that, everyone is different, regardless of gender or orientation. You can't judge whether you have anything in common with someone (other than gay-ness obviously) based on their orientation.

 

I am with ya TheSeeker.

I just keep seeing this same divisive topic on here so, though I get how the OP is not trying to be malicious...if you have been on here since the start of the year then you should know more about how these topics have been debated and can be hurtful. I have only been on this site 3 weeks and I have seen this.

Girls just want free drinks so they say the are bisexual.. People using bisexual as a transitional term or for a little exploiting before getting happily married with kids in a hetero relationship. Ugh.

And lesbians being man haters. I guess this is the place to have people explain how tired cliches are wrong.

(&&&)=(&&&)

 

I can understand the feelings towards those of us who are bisexual. It's a shame, but even I sometimes tell myself 'why can't i choose a side and just stick with it?'

Well, for the same reason you are gay, I can't 'pick one side'. I love men and women both. I find the male figure beautiful in its own way. I find the female figure beautiful in its own way, too. Same with genitals. All are different looking (even among the same sex, but also among the intersexed and trans community, too.)

Now, I know why some people who are gay are somewhat afraid of falling for someone who is bisexual. You have in your head, perhaps, that it is easier to be straight. More benefits, less hate and stigma, etc, so why would a man who is bi choose to date another man when a woman could bring him 'more' in life?

But that is, at least in my case, not true. And I'm certain I'm not the only one. I've always been a 'me against the world' type, anyhow. The world will not tell me who I am, the world will not tell me who I love, have sex with or find attractive. Only I will. And I've come to the conclusion that I am bisexual for the fact that I can find beauty and love in all sexes and genders in the same way you find beauty and love in the male form, mind, body, etc. Who approves and disapproves is not my concern nor care and they can keep that to themselves. There will always be unfairness in the world, but to hop from one person to the next simply because of benefits... well those people are out there regardless of if its about money, fame, fortune or benefits. Sad but true.

When it comes to me at least, I have the potential to fall romantically in love with someone, regardless of what their genitals (or lack thereof) look like. The sex comes afterwards if both of us are willing and desire it.

And, if I were in love with you or anyone else I found worthy of romantic love, the last thing on my mind would be hopping off of a good thing.


As far as the trans stuff goes, I acknowledge your sympathy, but more than that, I admire your empathy. It's not easy to even humor walking in another person's shoes.

As far as the lesbian issue is concerned, what was said above is right. Not everyone will see eye to eye, but being a lesbian is not an exclusive reason for separation of interests.

 

"...if I date a bi person, will I ever be enough?"
I can't speak for all bisexual people out there, but I've personally only ever been in long-term and committed relationships. I don't hop with ease from one person to the next and, despite my last relationship ending almost a year ago, I have remained single and pretty much non-sexual. My last relationship was with a girl, and she absolutely was enough for me when we were dating. So, to answer your question, yes. But I know what you mean and understand your fears.
A better way of putting it is, bisexual people (at least in my case) don't 'want it all' we just don't turn away the potential for love based on genitals alone.

And of course, some lesbians genuinely are misandrists, but so are any number of straight women or even men. I think that the label is just warped. Most lesbians I've met don't hate men at all. In fact, most of us have more similarities than we'd like to admit.

 

Over time I think it will improve and people will fall for whoever they fall for... But I can't discount the strong push towards heterosexuality in our current culture. Heck, I used to only date girls because of that pressure and I'm gay, not bi. Maybe it's because of my geographic location. Moving a to a more liberalized, open-minded metropolis would open my eyes to a world of opportunity and sexual orientation wouldn't be an issue for me.

 

I kind of have the opposite. I am yet to meet an out gay or bi guy at my school, though there probably are. Oddly enough, most of my friends are lesbians or bi girls. I personally do not associate with people based on their sexuality, in fact I did not know any of these friends' sexualities when I befriended them. Though I can relate somewhat to the jealousy you experience, especially after hearing about two lesbian friends-of-friends who have a horrible relationship, I don't think bisexuals feel unfulfilled in relationships. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that bisexuals are usually attracted to their partners due to an emotional bond and the genitalia is incidental. Though this may not be true for every bisexual. I personally find it silly to judge people for their orientations.

 

I've had my fair share of spaz posts. No one knows much about this stuff 'cause no one talks about it. So when you start talking about it, you just come face to face with your own ideas. You know you don't like them but they're there. Plus with me, before I was able to admit I was trans to some of the people in my life, I was living as a straight guy for years and years and completely ignorant of lots of stuff. I mean I liked to think I was open minded and easy going. Everyone does. But once you start thinking about LGBT stuff from this side of the fence you realize you really aren't as much as you thought real fast.

One other thing I've found is we all have to get really good at responding to BS and ignorance with empathy and understanding. It's just the only thing that works when people that you love are being unreasonable. So I think a lot of us just do it out of habit with each other. You could probably offend people and they might get angry and hurt, but they won't reply by attacking you. They'll just try to give you the love and understanding they want. Which works way better anyway.

I have a lot of the same fears you do talking about everything. Like I'm gonna say something that's gonna offend someone. And every now and then I'll feel like WTF did I just post. But I think you can kinda relax here. Someone from the WBC could come in and post and everyone'd probably just gather around and hug them

Best example for me, I was scared a few days ago that people in a support group would give me crap for being trans. Yes at a support group. I hear dumb stories on the internet about some feminists and some trans people clashing, just the same as what you're saying about gay men and lesbians, and I believe them. But people are individuals.

I think it's great you just put your thoughts out there in the open where you can deal with 'em. That's usually what works for me too. I think everyone's situation has its ups and downs, and I don't think I have it harder than you. It takes guts to leave the house in a dress sure, but all the hard consequences as far as family and relationships are exactly what you've got to deal with. I think just for me the lesbian part is harder to deal with than the trans part just because of the personal drama and heartache that came with having to tell the straight woman I love and proposed to that I was breaking off my engagement. I'll take guys clocking my facial hair over that any day of the week. And telling friends and family about yourself and why your relationship has to change is pretty much the worst experience any gay person has to deal with.

 

This. I agree with this. ^

In my opinion, cheating on someone is the worst offense you can commit in relationship short of physical and sexual assault. If I ever were to cheat on someone, i guarantee you my conscious would destroy me. So, while I understand you views, I think the promiscuous/unfaithful stereotype can be dispelled. As for the whole 'straight privilege' nonsense...well, you're forgetting a small something. We do get discriminated in straight relationships by the gay community. We are seen as traitors, as affirming the stereotypes, ect. Some of us are even ostracized from the community altogether. Also, both gay and straight people just assume we are straight and completely disregard our identities.
I do see where some these stereotypes come from, but they are hurtful and untrue. I applaud you for being open to change and asking these questions. thank you. (&&&)

 

Ok. Wow this is interesting. I am going to reply to this and attempt to be fairly civil, as I know there is no malice behind it; just unfortunate honesty.

I say unfortunate here, because these are some deep seated feelings. Look, I am going to go on a brief tangent here for a minute and talk about: culture.

So, some of this will be old news, but I want to express a complete thought so bear with me. Culture surrounds us, it is the context in which we were raised and dictates an unbelievable amount of what we think and feel on a day to day basis. Much of our cultural mores were ingrained in us from an early age. Homophobia is a good example of a non-natural response that is learned rather than biologically programmed.

Most negative societal traits are programmed by culture (like racism), as well as positive (charity, altruism), and finally neutral (how you hold your fork or use the restroom). Breaking through these layers of cultural programming is one of the hardest things about coming out to yourself; it's the reason that so many people feel that that is the hardest step. You literally have to grow new pathways in your brain, the same as learning a new language.

At the same time, even though you have joined a counter-culture by coming out as gay, you have simply swapped one culture for another. Anybody still following me here? Ok, here's my point. Based on your personal exposure to the LGBT community and experiences therein, you are actively being programmed to think/feel a certain way. Like breaking through the barriers in your mind to come out, you will also need to break through these stereotype barriers which you expressed in your original post. It will be almost as difficult, but not quite.

This making sense? Ok.

When I was in the Peace Corps, I had to reprogram my cultural responses at every single level; social, physical, and linguistic, nothing was exempt. Before I joined the Peace Corps, I was in denial about my sexuality and had no gay OR lesbian friends. I didn't know anything about Bisexuality at the time either. Once my cultural walls were torn down by the necessity to assimilate in Peace Corps, I was left with things that didn't fit with either culture, old or new, and one of those things was my sexuality. I read up on Bisexuality and realized that is what I truly was, but didn't know there was any social stigma attached to it. You can imagine my surprise when I returned to the states and joined EC...

I made a lot of gay and lesbian friends that were other Volunteers in the Peace Corps. I very much enjoyed their company, and never learned about stereotypes within the LGBT community because they were all in the same state of cultural fluidity as I was.

Now, I have gay, lesbian, bi, and trans friends. I don't feel differently toward any of them. But part of that is also being Bi. JustARaconteur, you mentioned having a certain bond with men that you just can't have with women. Being Bisexual (panromantic), I literally bond with both sexes the exact same way. Only my sexual attraction moves. I am usually a Kinsey 4-5, but if it shifts I can move back down the scale to a 2 just as easily. But I want to clear something up: You already know that bisexual promiscuity and infidelity are the exceptions rather than the rule.

But, speaking only for myself, I will NOT leave a guy for a girl because a girl is somehow "better". That is pure cultural programming, and I will not tolerate it. If I thought girls were better, I would not want to date and have sexy-times with guys now would I? I never understood that fear.

As for lesbians, sure there are a few that despise men, but for the most part they don't. One of my best friends ever is lesbian, and she was the first person I ever came out to. I like all of the letters in LGBT. It's just a no brainer for me I guess.

The important thing to realize is something that has been said here on EC time and time again. The only difference between straight and gay is where your attractions lie. That is ALL. Gay guys don't always have an inherent fabulosity (although some do have a knack for it, which I envy), Lesbians don't always wear flannel and fart at the table (although my cousin does... she's just awesome.) The ones that are behaving like stereotypes, are usually that way because they have been programmed by other stereotypes, or they think that it is a requirement of the orientation.

It used to be, when we were less visible, but now we can just be ourselves and like who we like. So, I guess what I am saying is this: Remove your cultural programming regarding the stereotypes around you. If the LGBT community where you are seems toxic and/or fractious, move on and look for others that you can more easily befriend. But put away your mistrust or distaste and know that it simply doesn't apply to most of us.

Also, go easy on us Bi-guys... We want penis too!

Hope that was at least marginally helpful,

The Seeker

 

Yes, some people are assholes who cheat on their significant others. That's a fact. But blaming a whole orientation rather than the individual person(s) who cheated is not cool. That's like saying you'll automatically distrust people with mustaches because Hitler had one. Or that all gay people have/are going to get AIDS because you've met a couple who do (hypothetically). Surely you can see the holes in that logic, can't you?

 

A bomb, no matter how softly dropped, still explodes. Your belief that bisexual people are monolithically able to access straight privilege is extremely problematic, although not unique. One thing that's often forgotten is that straight privilege attaches not to actually being straight or having opposite-sex attraction, but being perceived as straight. Straight people have been gay-bashed before because their appearance or manner conforms to stereotypes of gay men or lesbians. Likewise, there are gay and lesbian people who are assumed straight (and sometimes they find this frustrating, particularly lesbians and multisexual women who are feminine whenever butch is the preferred gender presentation). Unless they are visibly with a same-sex partner, they are free from harassment. "Straight privilege," then, is complex, but it's basically a myth that is more strongly built around gender presentation and performance as it's culturally defined.

In addition to that, it's rather politically toxic and undermining of the solidarity that queer people are supposed to have to suggest such access to lower levels of oppression. If we're not perceived as straight, then we are subject to violence and discrimination as well. We are still banned from getting married. We still do not enjoy protection against employment discrimination. We are still sexually humiliated by being told we're disgusting. We still suffer from increased levels of youth suicide. If we're women, we're twice as likely to be raped as straight women, and about 50% moreso than lesbians.

As a bonus package, we get distrust and exclusion from the gay and lesbian communities. When you say you have discomfort around bisexual people, I can relate, because I feel the exact same way about gay men. I expect to be questioned about whether I'm really sure of my sexuality, whether I'm more prone than average to being unfaithful, and whether I really have the same level of political commitment as other gay men. Rather than simply being accepted, I have something that I have to prove to you because of my opposite-sex attraction.

When I'm treated like I belong, it's a pleasant surprise.

I'd also like to make special note of the fact that transgender people are so extremely excluded by the LGB communities generally. This needs to stop, and we are suffering from a failure to understand that it's actually the gender binary, gender roles and the assumed coupling with sexuality, not sexuality itself, that is the cause of homophobia. Therefore, unless we are willing to adopt and take on their struggles as well, we will never fully realize our own aims.

 

I live a stone's throw from NYC, so the world I live in is drastically different than Louisiana it seems.

I go to the Gay Pride center -- its nearly all men, just a handful of women whom I haven't gotten to know, so no comment there. And I go to a gay alliance meeting -- which depending on the night tends to be maybe 1/3 to 1/2 women. And I've had a great time interacting with a number of them. I also go to a meeting at the NYC LGBT center -- which is also very diverse.

I'm sitting in meetings, with open vulnerable conversations going on, with gay men, lesbians, transgender men and women, bi men (no bi women that I've met), and people questioning. I've found a group of extraordinarily interested and interesting people, comforting, welcoming, affirming. Brothers and sisters on at least somewhat similar journeys of questioning, accepting, learning about ourselves.

I'd have dinner and a long conversation with just about any of them. Guess I'm really blessed to live in this part of the world.